Two Coaches & a Coffee

Season 2, Episode 12

• Darren Burgess & Jason Weber • Season 2 • Episode 12

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Can shunning the weight room actually shield athletes from injury, or does it rob them of peak performance? Newcastle's Anthony Gordon seems to think so, but this episode digs deeper into the complex world of strength training in professional sports. We tackle the debate head-on, contrasting Gordon's weightlifting aversion with insights from industry giants like Chelsea's former manager, who champion a more natural approach to fitness. Expect a rigorous examination of strength training's role in developing sport-specific force, muscle mass, and its implications for both enhancing performance and preventing injuries.

Today's discussion isn't just about pumping iron; it's about understanding the art and science behind training and injury management. We highlight the intriguing concept of the 'minimum effective dose' with a case study of a rugby player's strength maintenance. Delving into the research of JB Morin, we debunk myths around lifting weights and speed enhancement, and analyze an AFL player's expedited comeback from a hamstring injury, underscoring the precision required in tailoring training programs to each athlete's physiological response.

Cheers to knowledge, community, and the endless pursuit of athletic excellence!

SpeedSig Intro

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Jason Weber:

This computer G'day and welcome to Two Coaches and a Coffee Darren Burgess and Jason Weber here bringing you the deepest, most insightful real-world strength and conditioning. I won't use high performance. I hate that term, darren. I hate the term high performance manager.

Darren Burgess:

I hate the term marginal gain, so we'll just both avoid using those. I hate the term marginal gain, so we'll both avoid using those.

Jason Weber:

I hate the term fitness guru. There you go. We'll avoid that, just so. Anyone listening overseas and we have got quite a few at the moment we encourage everybody in the UK and the US and in Europe if you listen to us and you like what's going on, text it to a buddy message. It get it around. But in Australia, if they ever write an article about you in the newspaper, they would always say Darren Bird is a fitness guru every time, no matter who you are.

Jason Weber:

And it wouldn't matter whether it's not, no, it's like whether you're a fitness coach of collingwood carlton.

Darren Burgess:

You know, west coast, the crows it's always anybody fitness guru jane smith or you know, yeah, yeah, terrible, anyway, terrible.

Jason Weber:

Listen garen's. Uh, we've had a good conversation this week. You've got that. You've got it, man, it in.

Darren Burgess:

Mate, the biggest story that's happened in our industry this week, and I reckon I've had, conservatively three, four people say are you going to talk about this on your podcast? So Anthony Gordon, who is a very, very talented recent English international footballer, soccer player who plays for Newcastle, signed on a big transfer fee from Everton, I reckon a year and a bit ago. Anyway, he came out and said, and I'm going to quote I don't do weight training at all. Never the lads at the club do it. My game is not really relying on it. I just think we do enough running. So adding weight onto your muscles and your body is just going to put you under more stress, resulting in more chance of injury. It would probably make me stronger, I'd probably actually get quicker and more explosive, but I might get more injuries, so it's not worth it. I've been pretty injury-free this year. I have been injury-free this year. The gaffer, which is the coach, and the gym staff they're fine with me doing this. They know I don't like it. I just like to do what makes me feel good and this season I've been injury-free. The club are understanding with me.

Darren Burgess:

I do a lot of stretching, a lot of yoga, but actual weights and treatment. Some are there every morning, but it's not for me. The only thing I do is stretch. I stretch before training, after training, do a lot of recovery. My gym stuff is more recovery placed, so I do a lot of what bike, norma tech, love an ice bath pool and stretch, do some meditation. Um, a lot of the time when the session finishes and the lads go into the gym, I stay out all the time finishing or doing extra bits because I feel training has ended too quickly and I'm not ready to go in. So it goes on and it's worthwhile giving a bit of context to this In 2018, chelsea manager. Sorry, we don't use any weights. It's all natural work that we do in the gym. Nobody does weights. I've never seen a player with a weight on the pitch Mourinho's assistant, rui Ferreira. With gym work, you're going to lose mobility and agility. So the concert pianist doesn't run around the piano to get ready or do push-ups on his fingers.

Jason Weber:

That's a good analogy. We'll come back to that one, darcy norman. What's he got to say?

Darren Burgess:

darcy norman. A lot of people, even to this day, say you don't need to train weight, you just need to run. You totally need to do that, though strength doesn't equal size. If you're, pound for pound, as strong as possible, then energy it takes to do the same step is less and there's less metabolic consequence. Uh, talks about a few des ryan, former academy um sports medicine. I'm just reading this article from the training gown ground guru, which talks about it um, he advocates weights as well, so he advocates weights. He advocates weights, des ryan, um, so, um, certainly there was a lot of banter on Twitter about it and a lot of our fellow. You know, strength slash, sports science slash, performance slash whatever.

Darren Burgess:

Human performance not high performance, human performance, human performance. People jumped on the back of it. So I've got my thoughts, but what say you, jason?

Jason Weber:

Let's just add a little bit of the low hanging fruit. I think when an assistant coach says a piano player doesn't do strength training and doesn't have weights, the amount of force required to depress a key on a keyboard is minute right, so it's not a same conversation. The amount of force to decelerate a human body when it's moving at six meters per second, which is not even very fast, that's a lot more. So I think we throw that guy out straight away. Marino's assistant we turf him. I don't know who he is, but that's a ludicrous comment um what I?

Jason Weber:

do think. Um, I think if you start from a pyramid, from a global like this is just a general philosophy. Yes, I think we should have guys capable of developing force and, generally speaking, having coached a bunch of 16-year-olds this morning, they're uncoordinated, they can't apply force, they have inappropriate muscle mass for what they're trying to do, which is one of those sports they play, is soccer.

Jason Weber:

So I think there's definitely a case for it and, I think, doing it in a highly coordinated manner. I'm not an advocate for bodybuilding per se in sport there's that but I do think at the sharp end of the stick. I think the very sharp end of the stick. So when you're elite, you're there and you have a pattern. And if this guy, anthony Gordon, my first question to him would be and not question of him, but question of his body is can you apply force? Because we had one of the other quotes you made there saying well, if the person's got relative capability of applying force, well then then great. So if this kid can apply force and show me that, demonstrate that he has appropriate capability, well then fine. I'm never going to make somebody do things they don't want to do, but I will work with them to figure out what works for them, particularly in someone. Let's say I walked into. Let's say I walked into where is he? Newcastle? I walked into Newcastle today. I'm not going to walk in and say, right, everybody's getting under a bar, because that's just inappropriate, but I would work with them.

Jason Weber:

I worked with a Spanish player, soccer player, a couple of years ago and he didn't want to do weights but he'd ended up having some injuries that were just a function of he got weaker and weaker. Anyway, we started doing some bodyweight stuff where he was pushing me around and now I weigh 110 kilos. This guy weighed probably 72 at best. So once we had started discussing, I said to him what do you do? What's your position? You do, what's your position, what do you? And he was very much one of those um, a forward in soccer that was almost more like a forward midfielder, like he would take the ball and he would pivot around, so he would be holding guys off, controlling the ball and dishing it off, and so we ended up just making up exercise around that. But they were strength exercises. Were they weights? No, but they were strength exercises. Were they weights? No, but they were resistance activities.

Darren Burgess:

Yes.

Jason Weber:

So that's kind of my broad overview. But I think, yeah, to walk in, I know like even in the NFL I'm doing work at the moment and I know a new management group that have gone into one of the NFL teams. They would be the same If you walk into an NFL team and there's a bunch of 30-year-olds that have done X, y, z for 10 years and been very successful, and you come in and suddenly go, hey, we're not doing that, we're doing this whole other thing.

Darren Burgess:

Yes.

Jason Weber:

It would be, it wouldn't work.

Darren Burgess:

Yeah, I think yeah, go, no, you go mate, no, no, you hit. I think it's horses for courses. I think if a player, if you had a $50 million house on Cottesloe Beach there in Perth and Cottesloe just for anyone overseas, look up Cottesloe on Google.

Jason Weber:

But Cottesloe is very, very high real estate value right on the beach in Western Australia.

Darren Burgess:

Jason lives there, obviously.

Jason Weber:

No, I don't. I don't. I live a couple of suburbs back.

Darren Burgess:

So if you had a $50 million house and the builder or the owner builder said, no, I am going to put the structures in this way because this is the way I want to do it, and you're an advisor on the project and you say, no, it should be that way, but you know the owner wants to do it that way. You're not going to force the owner to change his mind. It's his house. It's worth 50 million dollars, so you need to be very, very careful. So anthony right now believes that his 50 million dollar body is better off not doing weights. If you say to him you should do weights because you'll be more metabolically efficient, which probably he would be but he's he's. It's quite an intelligent argument that he brings to the table. He says because you'll be more metabolically efficient, which probably he would be. But it's quite an intelligent argument that he brings to the table. He says I know it might make me a bit quicker, it might make me more explosive.

Jason Weber:

I did like that bit, yeah, but I thought that was very good from him, for sure.

Darren Burgess:

But I've assessed that cost benefit and I think it might give me more injuries, so I'm not going to do it. So is that an educated opinion? Um, probably not. He's got an n of one that he's basing that on right.

Darren Burgess:

So true, um, I just think you need to tread carefully, and it would be if I was in, you know, leading that program and trying to guide the strength coach on how to to um operate. I would say let's build up some trust with anthony over a period of time and then let's introduce, exactly like you said, some form of resistance training on pitch, some band work, some, um, you know, body body contact work, that sort of thing.

Darren Burgess:

So I don't think it's as big a deal as what the you can't say Twittersphere anymore the Xsphere has made it out to be.

Jason Weber:

Yeah.

Darren Burgess:

And it's just not binary. So many of these things.

Jason Weber:

But I think too, when you look at football, like the soccer in the UK and this guy's a UK player I would always argue that soccer is a ttritional l sport in that there are so many people playing at so many levels that the competition just to make it like god forbid, like you get to a champions, championship team that are epl team. You've already. You've already developed the capacity to play the game at that level. Now how you achieve. You get the guys coming out of the favelas in South America. They're not doing weight training but they're playing every day. And that's what program would we ever do where you'd say let's go and just play every day? That's the law of the jungle, that's how they survive. Now we only do strength training to fill a shortfall, right?

Jason Weber:

Yes, so there's no shortfall, but in the same breath, I think, if you expanded it, because soccer slash football is not a mass-dependent sport, and by that I mean it's not a heavy, it's no question there's contact, but it's not rugby, it's not rugby league, it's not NFL, where mass is hugely important. So I think that takes on a different argument.

Jason Weber:

But, in the same breath. If I take my 16-year-old kid I was working with this morning, he's a soccer player. He plays first grade at school. At high school he is. He's definitely on the negative side of skinny Like. His muscle mass is extremely low. He cannot. He's very awkward in deceleration and acceleration, so it makes sense to try and help him be stronger.

Darren Burgess:

Yeah, I think you know when there's a deficiency that's preventing somebody from reaching the top. So if Anthony Gordon is showing deficiency, then you might need to have that education with him. Yes, but from what I know of the player and also from what I know of the staff at Newcastle, they're very, very competent. More than competent, they're excellent staff there.

Jason Weber:

Yeah.

Darren Burgess:

So I'm sure they've got it covered.

Jason Weber:

I do.

Darren Burgess:

You know I quite like the debate and you know that's probably what.

Jason Weber:

Let's twist it another way, mate, because we're saying this guy's saying don't do weights, I'll throw in. This isn't hypothetical. So I worked with George Gregan, who was a Wallaby captain for a long, long time, played 130-some-odd tests for Australia Smaller cat but incredibly powerful. Now this is a guy that I worked with middle of his career but was with him at the Wallabies right to the end of his career. Now he's a guy who, yes, we would all come off the field and we would go and do a certain amount of lifting, but he would go the other way. I would say to him, like man, we don't need to.

Jason Weber:

And this kind of links to our periodization discussion last time. What's the minimum we can do, mate, to keep you where you need to be without going overboard? So we used to work towards saying look, maximum strength is going to decay peak value in about 21 days, so that means we only need to lift you once every three weeks. Get a really good stimulus in to just keep you where you need to be. We're not trying to get you better, we just need to keep where you are. And so we developed a training pattern which suited what he was. He liked to squat, so we made that happen for him, but it was about figuring out what he needed.

Darren Burgess:

Yes.

Jason Weber:

And then taking it to the right spot. Like everyone other people would say well, how come George doesn't need to do X, y and Z? I'm like man. The dude's played 125 tests. His body weight's perfect. He's this, he's that. He's doing what he needs. So, I think the argument cuts the other way too, Like when they do try to do too much there can be an argument to say what's the minimum effective dose?

Darren Burgess:

Yep for sure the number of players that have come into that have been transferred in. At times that I've been in, I'll have to go and grab that mate, the number of players. I have to go and grab that mate, jim. Recording the number of players that we've transferred in from other clubs that haven't touched a weight program when I was working in the Premier League is extraordinary, and yet they're just fine. I think I've told the story about a couple of them on the podcast before and they're just fine. I think I've told the story about a couple of them on the podcast before and they're just fine.

Darren Burgess:

So I think, particularly in Australia, we're a little bit obsessed with the only way to get big and strong is to spend it in the gym. When you can do field-based exercises, I challenge anybody. I think there's a couple of premier league teams coming over here, um, playing in melbourne, maybe playing in perth as well, I'm not too sure, but just if you go on and have a look at their training session or their, just have a look at their shape, their core, their glutes, hips, um, yeah, and just you'll see, without doing a whole lot of gym, they're pretty thick. They might not be as heavy overall as AFL players, for example. But I guarantee you the dimension, circumference of their hips, arse core area, is equal to any AFL player. You can talk your Patrick Cripps or your Elliot Yeo at the moment he's a bit of a buzzword Any of those people.

Jason Weber:

Mate. I think the other point that was made in that tweet, or that X, or however we frame that now was about being faster. One thing I do think is we get caught up in the illusion that if I lift more weights, I'll run faster.

Darren Burgess:

Yeah, all right.

Jason Weber:

That does not happen. It can contribute, there's no question. There's no question. But if the relationship was absolutely linear, that would mean the heaviest lifters in the world were the fastest runners. That is not the case and there's ample examples there's. I know JB Morin's story about the runner LaMetre so the great. Apparently he was a under 21s world champion. 200 meter was a great runner. He did some work, obviously through JB Morin's modelling, but the coach kind of took it the wrong way and the coach went and made him lift and he got bigger and heavier but it didn't improve his running at all and I think that is a big. I mean, I'm a big, I'm a lover of JB's work and I think his technical application of force work is brilliant. But I think that's where we get mixed up in that just getting stronger doesn't make you faster, like you've got to run fast and then you go back to what we said before.

Jason Weber:

If the way you were brought up playing soccer football is that you played so much, so many games, their repeat speed ability is going to be off the charts.

Darren Burgess:

Yeah.

Jason Weber:

And by natural selection they've survived. So they've survived the attritional model.

Darren Burgess:

Yeah.

Jason Weber:

So listen, mate, while we're on speed, a bit of an incident in the weekend. So over the weekend in AFL in Australia we had there's always a couple of injuries here and there, but one of the better teams at the moment is a team called Port Adelaide. Their captain is a guy named Connor Rosey excellent athlete. They've done a magnificent job with him over at Port. Only a young fella but super quick. Now he's took a bit of a weird landing and jagged a hamstring. It was clear. He grabbed at it, he came off the field. He walked off the field.

Jason Weber:

Now I don't want to specifically talk about Connor because we don't know what's going on and we're very clear with that. But this is a hypothetical. I think it's a good thing for us to share that idea of. Well, okay, you're in a running-based game which has a high fatigue element. The kid's clearly done something. You can identify an incident. He comes off, there's some clinical signs, but at this point the word is he's going to play this week. So what's that? Six days later or seven? Is it seven days? Six days? I reckon Six. All right, so he's had an incident. Six days later he's going to play again in a game where this kid's high speed. He's probably going to run. Let's say they've been reducing down a bit. He'll probably still go 10, 11 kilometres at the least. So, not discussing Connor, we're going to discuss his situation. But what are you looking for, darren? How would you make that decision? What would you see?

Darren Burgess:

So I'll give you an example of one we had earlier in the year where we had a player complain at three-quarter time of some hamstring stuff. And it was a tight game and he was a key player and he said I think I can go. He did a couple of run-throughs. Yeah, I just feel it. Look, give me the first five minutes and I'll see how I go, and then I'll let you know. He plays the whole last quarter. He sprints. He does about 30 odd percent of his sprinting in that last quarter.

Darren Burgess:

So it was all fine, had some awareness. Do a scan, there's a little bit there, not much, but a little bit. He trained during the week, enough for us to think about it, but it was round three or four, I can't quite remember and we just said you know what? No, we're not going to play. It's a big season, it's a long season. Even though we were struggling and he's an important player, we just rested him, not rested him, but we ruled him out. He played and has played since the week after and has played since. Could he have played that week, I don't know. So with the Rosie case, he couldn't continue the game, which is a little bit of a. You know, it was a smart decision. They were probably going to win the game anyway, so maybe they took him off. I don't know. I actually didn't see any of the incidents.

Jason Weber:

I saw all of it. But same thing, mate, he looked like he was kind of hedging towards yeah, I'll give it a go, I'll give it a go. And is yeah, I'll give it a go, I'll give it a go. And let's just again we're hypothetically dealing with this. Let's say the decision was made, you were on the sideline, it was your guy, we don't need to risk this. This isn't a position we need to push. We pulled him out, so the kid probably wants to go. So again, we're kind of moving away from it specifically being that guy. So the kid's had an incident. He's come off, he's clearly got a clinical sign or two, but we've said no, we're going to spell him. So what happens the next day? What are you looking for?

Jason Weber:

I've got a story I'm going to add as well in a minute.

Darren Burgess:

Oh look, you're essentially looking for objective markers where you're not relying on the player to and for me. I would have full faith in the staff staff, the physios and the strength coaches that I work with to. But if I'm in the room I'm looking at objective markers and so whatever test you can do on that guy through the week to move him through the stages really quickly and get him to training because it's a five-day break, there's probably no real main session, there's probably just the captain's run the day before the game. So get him to perform fully in the captain's run and once they can do that then as long as they can reach, I'd be making sure they can reach peak speed. Whatever testing protocol you use is adequate.

Darren Burgess:

The left to right leg imbalances are good and the player feels and is confident that they want to go. Then you have the decision to make. All of that information gets you to the decision right and then you say okay, five-day break, easily replaceable player, yes or no. I can't determine that for another team. Obviously, from the outside you can look at it and go. Well, you know pretty good player Importance of the game. You know four points is four points, no matter who you're playing Stage of the season, all of those things come into that decision. But you can only get to that decision once all the objective markers and the players' input has been added.

Jason Weber:

You know what's one I used to hate in AFL. The question would come from the coach if it was a grand final, would he play? Yeah, and it's like that's ridiculous. Ridiculous, mate, because in a grand final I took uh, in the grand final we played the team I was with an afl. We took a guy with a torn calf in, but we treated it in a certain way which I won't go into. Um, but we took the risk. We played one game. He got through but he couldn't run for 12 weeks after that because it was a grand final and he tore the shit out of it. But he got through with, you know, local anesthetic and all that shit.

Jason Weber:

But, that was would you play him if he was a grand final? Yes, you would, but would you have done that? Made that decision in round three? No way. So I think that from a coach, is an inappropriate thing.

Darren Burgess:

What I like about that. I'm just going to interject really briefly here because I know we're running out of time. But what I do like about that is I like the thought process of whether it's round two, round seven, round 10, making those aggressive decisions so that come grand final. It's not a different decision because it's a grand final.

Jason Weber:

Yep, but I think that's where and this is my nerd side coming in. That's where I would always say to a coach you've got to look at what's on the other side, so what's the probability of outcome? So if we've got a lot of data, so the kid, let's say for me, the kid does the incident on Saturday night, sunday morning he walks in clinically he looks clean, he's got full range of motion. He's got full range of motion, he's got full strength. So we would test isometrically that day in a couple of different angles. He's demonstrating basically full strength. You go and scan him. Yeah, there's a little bit there. It's myofascial, there's no cross-sectional area damage. It's looking. There's a little bit of something, but not much. But clinically he looks really good.

Jason Weber:

And then, as you said, you progress him through the week. You're going to have a lot of boxes ticked and you didn't use that term before, but you were right on it. Like you were saying, that's a tick, that's a tick. The kid comes off the incident, he walks off, he comes off under his own scheme. He wants to go again. All great, again all great. So you're ticking a lot of boxes. Yep, um, I will push the barrow man. This day and age I would be running in with clearly speed cig on.

Jason Weber:

I know it's a fucking gross um gross, gross um product placement for me, but I can't help that.

Jason Weber:

like that's where I'm at. I would want to know and I know categorically the hamstring markers, like we know that we'll publish that soon, but in the absence of that you still got to tick off all the boxes. Now I'm going to throw you one before we go on a reverse the the story. So I had a player elite, elite player injured himself domestically the night before a game, didn't tell anyone, comes in, plays the game. One of my very, very astute assistants said oh, did you see something different in that warm-up? I said I missed it, mate. What did you see? He said I think he's off. I'm like, okay, well, we checked. We went and checked the physio and everything. Anyway, it shows you the power of good coaching. But anyway, we went. So he played, played into I believe it was probably the second quarter, so he's got a bit of work under his belt.

Jason Weber:

Comes off, comes off the field and goes. I've got a hammy Right. We didn't see any incident, there was nothing there. He comes off On the sideline. He's got clinical signs. So on a single leg bridge he's got awareness. So it's my alarms going off. High value player. This would have been round, let's say five. So we need this kid all year. I said to the doctor simple question mate, does he have clinically positive signs? Yes, then he doesn't go. I called up the coach and I said don't think he should go, it's not, the risk is too high, the risk is too high down the track. So coach talks to the player. Player says no, I think I can go, goes back out, goes back out, runs across the field no more than 150 metres, not at high speed, runs across, takes a ground ball, bobble, bobble, bang, hamstring snaps, tendon, a whole lot, 2c big tendon injury. So my point in that is it's a really dicey situation and that's where I come to this probability idea.

Jason Weber:

Yeah, that if the kid presents with a few ticks. Now, if it's a kid again, this coach used to say to me all players are equal. Some are just more equal than others. Right, if it's a high-value guy and it's early in the season, maybe you make the decision, the conservative piece, which is maybe what they did with Connor Ozee the other day. Smart, I think. If it's a kid that just got to go, we need the numbers. Fair play. You got to do it. You got to put 18 players on the field.

Darren Burgess:

Yeah.

Jason Weber:

But I think you've got to weigh it up. I don't believe this is black or white. There's probably plenty of art in this. But I think the position where the grand final discussion you talked about, like you can say, yeah, we want to be aggressive and have good discussions, yeah, but it's not the same If you've got nothing on the other side, if it doesn't matter what happens to you, then you can go Spend High risk, high risk, high reward. But if the value of that kid coming out and that and I will tell you now that injury then dogged that player for a bunch of years for a number of other reasons. But when you go from a grade one and you start to step it up, sometimes those injuries haunt athletes for a number of years yeah so there's a risk either way.

Jason Weber:

But I think you've got to. You've got to look for outcome. What's the yes, they might play, but what's the cost?

Jason Weber:

yeah so that's, that's, you know, counter-argument. And I don't think it's an argument, I think it's just a position. But I think, in terms of whatever you want to call it, I said I don't like high-performance manager, but if you're the one holding the reins, if you're the one who gets asked, and it's your decision, what do you think? And I do like that. I think when a coach says I want your opinion, I don't want you to sit there and go. Well, the group thinks this.

Darren Burgess:

Yeah, yeah. What do you say?

Jason Weber:

I think you've got to come with an opinion, and that's why I think, understanding radiology, understanding what clinical signs that a physio and a doctor would assess, understanding them and understanding that cross professions, you need to get a full idea of where this thing's at.

Darren Burgess:

For sure.

Jason Weber:

That would be my view.

Darren Burgess:

Agreed. Well, it'll be interesting to see how it plays out.

Jason Weber:

Well, we'll review him next week see how he goes, but he's an awesome athlete and I can understand the value he brings. Captain and arguably best player. I mean, he's probably in the Brown Lows. The Brown Low is our MVP.

Darren Burgess:

He'd be in top five. He'd be up there. Yeah, Midfielders, and the comp players and the comp. So for sure, oh yeah.

Jason Weber:

Yeah, so well mate.

Darren Burgess:

Well, mate, it's been a pleasure.

Jason Weber:

The coffee's done. We need to get on with other work today. More's the pity, but we've got to get it done. You have a great day To those out there. Like I said, we love to see more people on this. We're getting some great feedback, but, you know, I'd love to see more people listening. I've been very happy with this. There's some people that are, you know, pro guys ringing up saying, hey, we really love just the discussion. So, you know, share it, Share it with your buddies, Talk about it. We'll try and talk more. That's exactly what Darren and I do. It's how we learn. So, mate, it's been a pleasure. You have a great week and I'll speak to you real soon.

Darren Burgess:

Cheers. Speak to you.