Two Coaches & a Coffee

Season 2, Episode 14

• Darren Burgess & Jason Weber

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Could shortening AFL games be the key to reducing player injuries? Tune in as Darren and I dissect the current AFL injury epidemic, weighing the merits of a controversial proposal to decrease game time. Amid the intense physical demands akin to those in NFL, we examine the surge in load-related injuries and concussions, and the potential impact of shorter games. Pivotal to our debate is the conundrum performance coaches face juggling athlete well-being and public judgement, illustrated by a player's recent facial fracture that has sparked widespread conversations about the complex nature of professional sports injury management.

As the discussion shifts gears, we cast a critical eye on the intersection of athletic prowess and physical fitness, using NFL's Patrick Mahomes as a case study. Debates swirl around his off-season condition - but how much does body weight truly sway a top athlete’s performance? This episode peels back the layers on player fitness, the relentless cycle of the English Premier League's off-season, and the underappreciated strategy of integrating players into team training early. Whether it's jumping into warm-ups or navigating training alongside disciplinary measures, we lay bare the essentials of fostering team unity and upholding a positive dynamic. Join us for an episode packed with expertise and insight that promises to elevate your understanding of sports performance and athlete management.

Sponsored by SPEEDSIG.com

Jason Weber:

G'day and welcome to Two Coaches and a Coffee Darren and Jason, back with you. We had a bit of a week off last week. Very well, not a week off. I think that either of us were sitting in the sun doing anything but very, very busy. But we're back at it and with plenty to discuss. Darren, how are you going okay?

Darren Burgess:

Jase, what's? Uh, there's a bit going on at the moment. Um, I reckon we start with. Our listeners overseas are probably not going to be aware of this, but there's a fair bit of talking in um AFL media about an injury crisis going on in the AFL. Even one of the leading coaches came out and said the game needs to be shorter because they've got a bunch of injuries. Yeah, what do you think about that shortening the game a little bit? For those who don't know, it's a two-hour game, so yeah, there's some merit in that.

Jason Weber:

So let's put that in context. So NFL is like a three-hour game, but the ball-in-play time in AFL is the better part of that two hours. So it's like give or take 28 minutes. So let's round it up to 28 minutes per quarter ball-in-play and players are rotating in and out of that, but some players play the bulk of that. So it's a massive ball-in For ball-in and out of that, but some players play the bulk of that. So it's a massive ball in for ball in play. It would be the highest in the world Would that be fair, yep I think it's not the first time it's been discussed.

Jason Weber:

We certainly know. Years ago in the AFL they used to have, you might remember, what it was called the Telecom Cup or something of that effect. Anyway, it was a midweek game. I don't remember the game, but it was a shorter game and we used to have players, and this was probably back in 2010,. But players would come out of that having played 75% of what they normally do and think, yeah, I'll just recover, fine, this is great, no problem, easy. So there's no question, I'll just recover. Fine, this is great, no problem, easy. So there's no question. If you shorten the game up, it would be easier on bodies, but there's no doubt there's a relationship to the absolute amount players have to do.

Darren Burgess:

Well, I think a couple of things. I think one there's more load-related injuries now than I can recall, so there seems to be more.

Jason Weber:

Can I be a dick and say load or exposure? So they're exposed to more training and competition than they've ever been exposed to, as opposed to load that they're physically carrying more.

Darren Burgess:

Yeah, so I would say it's exposure. Yeah, I would say it's exposure. Yeah, I would say it's exposure. But I think things like stress responses in hips and groins are starting to become a little bit more prevalent, and this is just going through. Looking at the injury list around the league, there are yeah, there's certainly more of those, but I've found that there's also more shoulder. There seems to be more shoulder and impact injuries and I think that's a result of the game of just athletes getting faster and the rotations are still there. So we still get 75 rotations, but the average speed of games seems to be going up. So games are staying the same length. The average speed is going up. The collision injuries are becoming more and more substantial. There's certainly more concussion, whether that's awareness or incidents. We could argue that Would reducing the number, would reducing the duration of the game fix some of those. I believe it would. So I've been in that camp for a long time. But yeah, it's just an interesting.

Jason Weber:

It's a big step. It's a big step for a traditional sport to drop its timing. But I tend to agree. There's no doubt that that exposure question and the rate of the speed of the game, if a coaching group get it wrong, as in one group, don't rotate enough, like, let's say, um. Back in the day we used to see that the um, we try to distribute more rotations into the midfield and say and the, the high running backs, um, would get more time off. Uh sorry, more time on the field and their exposure was just more. They didn't run less, they just ran more and we end up with those insidious onset soft tissue injuries. So I tend to agree with you.

Jason Weber:

The interesting one is the stresses and the change in the stress structures or stress incidents. I'm also questioned that when we see the late onset so the older guys who suddenly get osteitis pubis at 26, you've got to ask the question why has that? Osteitis pubis is typically a younger athlete's issue, but yeah, to see it in older athletes you go. Why the change all of a sudden? Hard to say. But yeah, it's a big step, it's a big step for them. But maybe if you've got anything else to go on that, I'll switch there.

Darren Burgess:

No, I just think it's certainly for performance coaches, high performance managers, whatever. It's a massive management issue now because again in AFL more so than other sports that I'm aware of anyway or that I've been involved with the scrutiny on injuries um is just enormous and we had a player who's out for six weeks with a facial fracture. Um, uh, well, it could be up to six weeks with a facial fracture. And like, I woke up this morning and there's all these um, uh online messages, uh to me or or quoting me or um, or tagging me in these messages and you're just thinking it's a facial fracture like this is, yeah, quite interesting. I've not not had that sort of. There is the inference that you're just thinking it's a facial fracture Like this is quite interesting. I've not had that sort of.

Jason Weber:

There is the inference that you're involved, that it's your fault.

Darren Burgess:

I could be honest, mate. I've made it a point this year. I can't tell you how liberating it is to not listen to any AFL-related radio show, podcast, TV.

Jason Weber:

Oh God.

Darren Burgess:

Not a single one has, and so even if I'm tagged in those things, I just don't even look. But you?

Jason Weber:

bring up a great point and I've got on my high horse about this before with respect to the AFL that the injury status gets. The finger gets pointed at the conditioning staff, particularly whoever's heading the department, when in fact, most of the exposure that we're talking about, which is games and training, is precipitated and run by the coach, and no matter how many times you say, get this guy off, or um, we, we need to, just training's been going up and up and up for six weeks, we need to just temper it. That's where the and up and up for six weeks, we need to just temper it. That's where it lies. When we come back to the old one, oh, you know, I have to face the media. It's my job. I get to say, well, you do, but the finger gets pointed at our staff. Anyway, enough of that.

Darren Burgess:

And we'll finish up on this what happens during games is generally the high-performance person is in charge of the rotations during the game generally Not always it goes, but generally, yeah.

Jason Weber:

So just for those in the US. Rotations in AFL are kind of like hockey rotations ice hockey.

Darren Burgess:

They are and, generally speaking, we're in charge of that and you're in the middle of a close game we had a close game on the weekend that didn't go our way and you might have your best player who's doing really, really well and they're due for rotation of your best player who's doing really, really well and they're due for rotation. All of your metrics objective metrics, are saying that that person is fatigued and in need of a break. And yeah, the message coming down from the coach's box is why is Jason Webber off the ground? You know we need him and the commentators are saying I cannot believe that. You know Jason Webber's off the ground for eight minutes and literally that will happen.

Darren Burgess:

There'll be a camera. Go straight to the bench and see that your star players off the ground with so at some point in the last quarter because everybody gets a break in the last quarter generally um, yeah, so there is that, that pressure as well, that comes on. So it's an interesting environment. It's one that that's fine. You all sign up for it, so you know what's going on, but it does create a bit of extra pressure that doesn't seem to be around in some of the other sports around.

Jason Weber:

Fair play and absolutely correct. Let's twist it a little bit. A couple of things happening at the moment simultaneously. So you've got NFL have moved to OTAs, so the organized training activities we just lost the big guy there for a minute. He's back. So NFL have just gone to OTAs, college football is coming into summer training and we've got the EPL in the UK is just about just going on a break pretty much. Now I've seen a picture posted in the last handful of days of Patrick Mahomes so the multiple NFL Super Bowl winning MVP quarterback coming into training and the training. Pretty much they're saying he's rocking the dad bod, which, as I own a dad bod, I pretty much know what that means. Um, I think the question is the guy's got two MVP rings, the guy's got more silverware than I'll ever own. Am I in a position to say to him Patrick, you're carrying too much weight? Now, it's an interesting one because it comes up a lot, but he's at the sharp end of the stick, right, so it's an interesting one. What's your views on that, berger?

Darren Burgess:

Is it affecting his play? Mm-hmm, so just come back to that his play. So just come back to that. In the AFL, excess weight absolutely 1,000% affects your ability to perform, right? So excess, superfluous weight does In soccer, yes, I imagine in basketball, yes. Does it affect Patrick Mahomes's ability to play? Uh, I don't know the answer to that. Um, seemingly no, unless there's a massive change. But what we do know, um, that's undisputed for indisputable, is that excess weight can cause a greater risk of injury and less explosiveness.

Darren Burgess:

So it's going to be up to Patrick Mahomes what to do.

Jason Weber:

Yeah, yeah Now he might have a plan. I think this is the hypothetical piece. Again, I'm not going in any stretch, but I think he illustrates a great point because I will say that I had an argument years ago in Rugby Union with a very well-known coach about the fact that I presented a report that was based on all of the players we had in a particular position and the player that he liked the most, which was a great player, rugby player of Australia was in the middle of the rankings. He wasn't at the top of the rankings and I got told that's a rubbish report. He should be at the top. I said hold on, I'm not reporting on whether he's a good rugby player or not. I'm reporting on a fitness parameter in which we have two other guys that, even though he's good enough and I'll come back to good enough he's good enough in that. Let's just call it. It was a fitness. It was a beep test. He's good enough in the beep test to be the greatest player ever, but in the same group we have we have two other players that are infinitely better and we're talking running 15-5 beep test versus a 13-5. So I said I'm not saying he's not good enough, I'm just saying that's where he ranks.

Jason Weber:

But I think this comes back to is the player good enough on whatever variables you consider appropriate? So, is Patrick Mahomes mobile enough, fast enough? I mean, the guy rushes, the guy runs. Is he fast enough? Is he mobile enough? He can get out of the pocket, he can scramble, but does he compete on exceptional skill? Probably yes, afl, I think, given the amount of times we see guys missing goals in front of the sticks. A lot of people compete on fitness premise or on a better runner than somebody else you know. So I think it comes down to understanding your population. Understanding, but also understanding what makes someone good. What do they compete on? What is their trick?

Jason Weber:

I mean I can comment on another one of the great open side flankers in Australian rugby. Ever he was never. He was always kind of high on skin folds and all that. He wasn't the greatest runner. He was okay, but he wasn't the fastest. But he was strong. So when you looked at his strength compared to everybody else's, he was way stronger in that position and he played exceptionally. So do I need to bust his balls to be one level higher? Beep test, because that puts him in a good market and it looks good on a report, or do I need to understand what makes him tick?

Darren Burgess:

What do you think? Yeah, I think it's. I don't ever want to be far. Be it from us to be telling someone Patrick, my mom's the greatest ever, one of the greatest ever, certainly the greatest currently Mr Brady might disagree. Yeah, what we can do is speculate on the facts. I'm sure he's got a plan. I'm sure he's enjoyed his off-season. He's entitled to it.

Darren Burgess:

He deserved it. From everything that you read, he's fairly competitive and he'll be fine. But as a general rule of thumb, this body weight stuff, which nowadays we're not going to be able to know only high-performance managers, doctors and sports nutritionists are going to know what people's body weight and body fat is. With some of the new rules that are going about, yeah, I think you just can't deny that excess body weight affects performance. So it's a factor, it's a controllable factor and you're just relying a little bit on the athlete and a little bit on education to get that right.

Jason Weber:

All right. So body weight's a thing, but what about? Epl have just gone to a break. So English Premier League? They've got some of the most outstanding football slash soccer players on the planet playing in that league. What would you expect? You've worked in the league. What do you expect? They're going on a break. When you come back, you really only have a couple of weeks before you get going into pretty hard training. What's your expectation of them walking back in the door? Let's say, a Patrick Mahomes type player in the EPL, he's walking back in the door. If he comes back in rocking a dad bod, what are you? What are your thoughts?

Darren Burgess:

yeah, I guess that's a different. Um, it's slightly different because in the EPL you only have about four weeks of pre-season, that nfl aren't playing for another three months, and true, you only have about a four or five week period. Um, the best player in the epl is probably playing in the euros or the copa america, which are going on so, or the olympics. So the chances of that happening are, yeah, very slim. But if it did happen to a lower level player who has been away from football and the club for you know, six weeks, which is basically all they get, six to eight weeks I think the environment would throw that person out or would make it really clear to that person that how they've presented themselves is not befitting of a professional athlete in that environment.

Jason Weber:

Which, given your comments, particularly around how it relates to performance in that league. That's critically important.

Darren Burgess:

Yes.

Jason Weber:

The other interesting maybe just sideline before we head off is you get a player back in. Let's say he's middle tier, he's not the greatest on the field but he's certainly a strong player for you. He's a little bit underdone coming into that four-week period. Do you allow him to do some work with the team to build up his condition and control it, or are you of the mindset that he's out altogether and we run him and we get him ready and when he can run he can go in?

Darren Burgess:

Okay. Answer to that is it depends, but by and large, the sooner you get a player into team training in any way the better. I don't care if that's warm-ups, Whatever you can do to get that player in the quicker the better. I don't care if that's warm-ups, Whatever you can do to get that player in the quicker the better.

Jason Weber:

Yeah, I think there's a huge problem with I've seen the disciplinary thing where they go no, you're out, and this is the one I love where the coach goes, you're not coming to team training and you have to come to train at 5.30 in the morning and I say, well, and who's running that? And it suddenly becomes a conditioning staff thing. So the problem now is being owned by staff, not just by the player. But yeah, I think your ability to get them into training is critical, absolutely critical.

Darren Burgess:

Sure.

Jason Weber:

Right, mate, it's been a pleasure again. We've got garbage trucks running past me in the morning. Man, you have a great week and we'll chat again real soon. Ciao to everybody.

Darren Burgess:

Cheers.