Two Coaches & a Coffee

Season 2, Episode 16

• Darren Burgess & Jason Weber • Season 2 • Episode 16

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Ever wondered who holds the key to a successful athlete's comeback from injury? Join us as we bring Darren Burgess and Jason Weber to the table to dissect this pressing question. You'll learn why they believe the ultimate rehab experts are those who blend medical acumen with strength and conditioning prowess. From amusing anecdotes to a deep dive into running mechanics, this episode promises a holistic view on getting athletes back on their feet—literally and figuratively.

But that’s not all. We shift gears to explore the significance of experienced leaders in shaping the next generation of sports professionals. Darren and Jason draw from their extensive careers to discuss the delicate balance between hiring fresh talent and seasoned veterans, all while navigating budget constraints and diverse club cultures. Hear their candid reflections on how long-standing roles versus varied gigs have influenced their leadership paths. This is a must-listen for anyone passionate about the intersection of sports rehabilitation and leadership development.

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Jason Weber:

G'day and welcome to Two Coaches and a Coffee. We've got Darren Burgess and Jason Weber here back on deck for another riveting round of our podcast. We now are aware, Darren, we've got direct competitors in the UK with the Breaking Lines podcast. I heard one of the greatest stories from Dave Carrolyn, who's one of the hosts, on that. He said to me I was sitting on a beach on holidays listening to you talk about my podcast, talking about your podcast. So there's a little bit of circular work going on there.

Darren Burgess:

And he did send me a photo and his pasty white skin did not look so pasty, it looked bright red. But anyway, dave, he's one of the good guys and an outstanding practitioner. So he'll probably be listening probably still in Greece somewhere, so good stuff.

Jason Weber:

Well, he's not entirely, but part of the motivation behind what I'd like to open the batting with, because I've had a lot of discussions recently, a lot, a lot in the US, not so many here in Australia, but there's some stories to add. Who should be doing rehab? The medical fraternity, and we'll open that up. It's the physiotherapist In the US. It's the athletic trainerist in the us. It's the athletic trainer. And now I know they're different cats, unquestionably, but we're going to put them in the same basket. Or should snc coaches be doing rehab now? Darren, you're widely known for being able to get on the other end of a telephoto lens doing rehab with an athlete. Now, I say that in jest. But yeah, man, you've done enough rehab. You've done it all over the world. What do you think? What's the look? Is it the physio? Is it the S&C? Is it something in between?

Darren Burgess:

I think it's something in between. I don't think it's necessarily should be one person or the other. What I do know is that they need to have experience in conditioning and strength prescription in order to do it properly. So you can pick your poison in terms of whether it's a physio or a conditioning or a chiro or whatever it might be, but they need to have experience in strength and conditioning prescription. So, as long as they have that, um, along with, of course, knowledge of anatomy and injury and yeah, um, but I think the the best people that I've worked with in this space are people who have had both qualifications both a physio slash, you know, some sort of medical background and then strength and conditioning qualifications and experience, and they're probably the best that I've worked with. Have you got you know, have you got an opinion on whether it should be one or the other, or how do you see it? Well, I think.

Jason Weber:

Well, there's two parts. It's interesting you said it could be either or, and I think there's a point to that. I definitely think I'm going to put a weird caveat on it and it has to be. The person has to understand running.

Jason Weber:

Now, one of my very early gigs in rehab back in the late 90s I worked with Cameron Lillicrap, one of the great prop forwards in Rugby Union, australia, but a great physio, and he was awesome at rehab and he was actually quite a good running coach and I thought he did a lot of really good things Awesome.

Jason Weber:

But I have worked in a lot of other spaces where I've seen the physio running elements that they shouldn't be doing, that they have no idea about. And I'll extend that further and say what I've seen overseas, particularly in the US, is athletic trainers taking athletes back to particularly to high speed running and really having no concept about what they're doing. So I'm not I'm not buckled up about one or the other, but I think you've got to have some real intricate knowledge about what you're doing. Which brings me back to a question I had about yours, about the. You mentioned that whoever it was would be skilled on the field and in the gym. So in your mind, does that, does your rehab model have the sort of that one person overseeing almost all of the program for that individual?

Darren Burgess:

Yeah, more or less they do. That doesn't necessarily mean that they don't get help from elsewhere. Um, yep, they, uh, we have a rehab coordinator and they coordinate that program and then, uh, you'll have various people having input into that. Yep, I guess the running is a really important one because it's the only space in in the sports that I've worked with anyway where you can do some running re-education. So I think I agree with you, they need to have a running background the return to play, and whether people say return to perform or however you want to label it, return to train.

Darren Burgess:

I think the thing that gets missed out often if you're not experienced in that area, is that gap between ticking off GPS or numbers in what you think the person might need in order to perform and then, and maybe even energy systems. You can tick off those reasonably quickly by doing some mas running and you know some pretty, pretty simple running. But what you can't do is, uh, unless you're experienced at it, unless you have a knowledge of the game that you're returning somebody to, you can't close the gap on being able to perform straight away with that mixed conditioning model and go straight back into training and games, and I think that's where most rehabs get let down, not necessarily by re-injury, but by an inability to cope with the demands of the game that you're being rehabbed for. So I think that's the really key component of it for me anyway, once you've turned the strength to the area and go through those stages.

Jason Weber:

I think I'll throw because, because we should, this is less hypothetical than we normally do. Um, I'm going to go three stages return to function, return to run and return to play. That's the way I would look at it, I think. Return to function so let's say post-surgery or post a big acute event, there's no question, physio, medical have got major eyes on that. Return to run is probably somewhat of an overlap that you could have either or professional doing, depending on their skill set. But return to play.

Jason Weber:

I think if it's the snc's task throughout the course of the year to prepare athletes to play, it's not the physio's responsibility that in the return to play. So they're running, they're functional, but we've got to get them, as you said, let's say after a long injury. So now we've got, you know, we might have a couple of weeks where we're really building towards playing. Definitely should be the conditioning staff. So I think, think there could be overlap.

Jason Weber:

But if I hark back to your idea of the rehab coordinator, I think that's a great perspective. My opinion in the last my 12 years in AFL, I always had one guy assigned to rehab. He was always an S&C. I had a rehab physio and an S&C Cool, but the S&C took the running and the gym but he had close oversight from medical, so we had that great interaction, yeah. But I definitely agree that ability to, or that understanding of the tolerance that a person can put up with what's going on the field and what's in the gym or, let's say, off field it's not just gym I think that's incredibly important yeah, I think the um, the examples where I think rehabs are not done well and that they don't return to training, to match play or to performance very well.

Darren Burgess:

Often it's the um. I don't need you to get to 80% speed here. We need to maintain. You know appropriate running mechanics. So let's do three sets of six, 80 metres or whatever. Pick your poison. Okay, we've ticked that box. I'm just going to go and set up the next drill while you have a drink and then you have a bit of a chat and all that sort of stuff.

Darren Burgess:

So you're just losing that intensity, um, and I think that's one of the areas that gets let down so much. And you know we could talk about accelerations and decelerations moving at the same percentage of speed and, and do you do those at the start, the middle or the end, because I'm pretty sure you have to accelerate at the end of a game? Um, so we should do them at the start, while they're fresh. Well, they're still going to sprint at the end of a game. You know all those sort of things come into it. So I think that's where the really good rehab coordinators and conditioning coaches, and whatever term you want to use, are separated.

Jason Weber:

I think, mate, I think it's a good. You make a great point with respect to something I get asked relatively regularly how do I learn rehab, how do I get good at it? Well, there's only like many things, you've got to go and do it to get used to it, but you've got to be in an environment where you can learn. Now I think if you're in an environment where someone like you was giving that overarching view of what rehab should be and then a re-coordinator is doing it, but they're educating the people coming through what I dislike immensely is when I get a new staff member and we just shovel them off to rehab yeah, yeah and it's like hang on, you've got the most technical, most challenging environment possible, because the athlete's not just trying to be better, they're obviously coming getting over something.

Jason Weber:

But we put often a kid in there who's got no experience and they don't know what they're looking at. I think that's a travesty, I think that's too hard on the young coaches and I you. If you're trying to get a job somewhere and you're getting into that rehab space, you need to be clear on and this is my message for those listening you need to be clear on who's guiding you. So when you could, I mean I used to plenty of the guys I worked with would say hey, jace, I'm seeing this, can you come over here and have a look and let's confirm it together? Yeah, and we get it. And then you do that for a little while and then no longer they really need to ask you because they can see it whatever it is we're discussing. But I think that education piece it's critical that and we'll get to this bit too about the age but I think as leaders, I think it's relying upon a department manager to be able to educate those guys through and practically develop them in their skill set.

Darren Burgess:

I think that's where the person in charge of the department is really, really important, because the education of younger people and let's take the AFL In the AFL we've got a few different models going around around the world.

Darren Burgess:

Sorry, but in the AFL at the moment there's a soft cap or a limit on spending off the field, so you could potentially have the situation where you have a really experienced head of department whatever the title that might be and then a bunch of younger practitioners around you, and so that education piece on appropriate rehab, appropriate conditioning, appropriate strength is really, really important and the philosophy around that becomes really really important. So the onus then comes on the department lead to be able to coordinate and educate the staff, and I think that's a really important role that often gets overlooked when hiring for those particular roles, I think they look at oh, which teams has he or she worked with? A really good way of and I'm speaking this with a little bit of internal knowledge, which we'll get on to in a minute, but a good assessment, I think, anyway, of a good practitioner or a good department leader is where have those people who have worked under or with him or her have they been able to progress?

Darren Burgess:

and I think what I am noticing and you probably are as well, jace is that there is um a lot of um department leads that are um, uh, you know, head of performance or head of fitness, particularly in football, people in soccer, people who travel around with managers that are of varying ages. And it's just interesting to note, you know, the ones that have had a lot of experience leading departments versus the ones that maybe don't have as much experience leading departments but just as importantly, or very importantly, know the way that that manager works and therefore can implement that manager or coach's strategy. But I certainly am noticing a really big age difference in the UK particularly, or sorry, in particular, the UK and the US.

Jason Weber:

Yeah, there's no question. There appears to be that. I don't know my good self, maybe you're nearly there, as we've traversed an age barrier. I had a conversation earlier this week with another really experienced practitioner and he was actually asked to interview for a job and then he interviewed for it and they said look, you're not innovative enough. He's like hang on, you asked me, you came to me looking for this and he said who have you spoken to? Nobody. It was like they were just making up numbers.

Jason Weber:

So I feel like and I've sort of come across this a little bit whether people start to pigeonhole you, does that do that? I don't know. I know another guy who I'm not going to mention by name, a guy in the UK who's now probably into his 70s, but, yeah, one of my great mentors, but he hasn't worked in teams for a long time because I don't know whether he didn't want to, but it seemed like he was still a good practitioner and it just evaporated. So I don't know, mate, I don't know whether there's an element of budgetary restrictions. It's hard to say.

Jason Weber:

I know in the US there are certainly guys working, you know, ahead of strength and conditioning. Particularly. There's a couple of guys there who are working quite old, they're in their mid-60s, they're all bulls. You know they're cracking it, but yeah, I do feel like there might be. I don't know whether I've broached that line in the sand, maybe I don't know, but it does feel that line in the sand. Maybe I don't know, but it does feel like in some areas people are going younger. There's some resumes that I read that I just look at them and go, wow, would I employ that person in that position with, you know, a handful of years of experience? I don't know.

Darren Burgess:

Do you feel over the hill, mate, at times? Yes, I certainly don't feel over the hill. You know, from a leadership department, leadership point of view at all, I think I'm infinitely better at 50 than I was at 40.

Jason Weber:

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Darren Burgess:

I don't feel like I'm over the hill from a department leadership point of view. Can I keep up with the players in running rehab? No, but I've never done that anyway, even when I could sort of keep up with them. So yeah, it's an interesting discussion, mate. Like I said, I'm more convinced that as a department leader, the more experience you have in a range of different roles, the better off you will be, whether you're a physio or a fitness or a sports science. But the range of experiences becomes really important, and a range in not just in different clubs but different sports that's.

Jason Weber:

That's what I was just going to ask you, mate, like I like, if we characterize my career, I had two jobs over 20 years. All right, two long-standing jobs. You had some big, big jobs, like certainly EPL, but you moved around. Do you feel that being in a few different situations kept you fresh? Because I could easily agree with the observation that by the end of my tenure in AFL I was probably sick and tired of maybe the same routine, maybe that environment. Did I need something different? Who knows? But there's a point that I look at and think well, Darren's been around a couple of different gigs. What do you think?

Darren Burgess:

been around a couple of different gigs. What do you think? I think the more exposure to a variety of circumstances, the better, the more well-rounded. And yeah, it's like, um, if you give a kid, um, a soccer ball and um, put them out on the street and let them play three on three every afternoon, they, or four on four, or five and five, they're going to be exposed to a whole range of different scenarios that they will eventually think their way out of. If you are only in one club or one sport, you'll certainly get a range of scenarios, but you probably won't get enough or as much as somebody who's been in a range of different sports or a range of different clubs. There are massive downsides to jumping around, like I have and we could. You know that's a whole other podcast. So but yeah, I reckon, by and large, I would employ the person who's had more experience under more scenarios than one who's had less.

Jason Weber:

Hey, mate, let's. We're going to wrap up one more subject, I reckon, but you've just hit on something which is a bit different to what we were just talking about. But when I flew solo last week in the podcast and I talked to myself, one of the things I brought up was Dave Carlin and Greg on Breaking Lines had talked about the robustness of athletes and I said, well, one of the things I'm seeing I've been coaching high school again for a couple of years. I've seen a lot, a lot of back injuries, a lot of pars, intraarticularis stresses, a lot Like I'm talking, maybe 20 in the last two years, and not all from majority from running sports.

Jason Weber:

Certainly, basketball has been a contributor and cricket, but if you take cricket out of the equation running and jumping sports you may note of the soccer ball and going outside and playing four on four every day. That's really the South American thing, the favela, right, we're going to go and play every day and we're just going to play and then, by law of the jungle, the strongest survive. So what ends up happening is the dude that turns up from South America in EPL and this is a question, not a statement, I'm assuming like they're bulletproof in many regards Is that fair? How have you seen? Because soccer development is very different because of the numbers.

Darren Burgess:

Yeah, this is another whole subject, another sorry, my phone just rang. This is another whole subject for a podcast. But what I can tell you is there is no difference in the robustness and resilience of players that I've worked with that have grown up in the gym versus those that have grown up on the streets.

Jason Weber:

um, there is no, no difference none whatsoever and in fact, there it is ways.

Darren Burgess:

if I, if I really put some thought to it, um, I reckon I could I'd be swayed to say that those who, uh, grow up on the streets playing and playing, and playing yeah, I guess I could name some players offhand, but I wouldn't be doing any great analysis of it.

Jason Weber:

Mate, because what I'm seeing what I talked about in more detail last week is the kids that are trying to. They're training more and more now, coming up with these crazy injuries. They're training more and more now, coming up with these crazy injuries. And I've got to say the AFL experience is probably the most one because of the volume, because the game seems to go so long and training's long for everyone. The kids are getting burnt.

Darren Burgess:

Yeah, let's discuss it next week, because it's something I'm pretty passionate about with my beef pros. So let's hold that.

Jason Weber:

Let's do that next week, all right.

Darren Burgess:

One thing I need to do before we go. My son has started listening to the podcast, so I just want to say I told him, I promised him I would say G'day Harry, harry. So a little legend, not so?

Jason Weber:

much. That's what happens, man. You, you get little ones, and my fifth, my 19 year old son ben, is now well taller than me. But, harry, it's a pleasure to have you, mate. Um, I met you a long time ago when you were very little, but I haven't seen you since. But welcome, welcome, harry, and hopefully we get some more young listeners on board. But, mate, great to have you back, great to have a chat, and next week we'll have a bit more of a deeper crack at the developing athlete thing.

Darren Burgess:

Nice Good stuff mate.

Jason Weber:

All right, mate, great Speak again real soon. Cheers, we'll be right back, thank you.