Two Coaches & a Coffee

Season 2, Episode 29

• Darren Burgess & Jason Weber • Season 2 • Episode 29

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Ever wondered what goes into a detailed post-season review for an AFL team? This episode provides an inside look at the Adelaide Crows' meticulous three-week evaluation process, comparing it to how other leagues, like the EPL, manage transitions. We'll take you through the thorough job interview process for key positions at the Crows, including the head of sports science role that Alec Buttfield secured due to his outstanding credentials. The discussion also touches on the value of internal promotions and the unique opportunities that niche skills can unlock within prestigious organizations.

Moreover, we dive into the realm of mentorship and its critical role in career development within coaching and sports science. Hear about the invaluable lessons learned from legendary mentors like Charlie Francis and Dan Pfaff, and the importance of experienced professionals passing on their wisdom. We also explore the concept of paid mentorships and the necessity of ensuring value in these relationships. Whether you're an aspiring coach or sports scientist, this episode underscores the benefits of formalizing mentorships to propel your career forward and enhance personal dynamics in the industry.

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Jason Weber:

G'day and welcome to Two Coaches and a Coffee Darren Burgess and Jason Webber, with you once again, two weeks in a row, darren, we got together, not bad.

Darren Burgess:

It must mean that the Crows have been knocked out of the AFL season, so we've got a little bit of time.

Jason Weber:

The AFL season's full for those overseas Full swing finals. They're in the second week of finals. Last week largely uneventful, other than one game.

Darren Burgess:

Yeah, it might be completely off topic and off script here. Jason was the script, the script that has like one line to it yeah, yeah, um, the interesting thing about afl compared to other leagues that I know about anywhere. I've worked in um. So we we haven't had a game in two and a half weeks, coming up to three weeks, and we've been in by and large every day reviewing the season for three weeks after the season finished.

Jason Weber:

Players have been in.

Darren Burgess:

Only injured players have been in. Just players are in for three days, yeah, or two and a half days, as per the players association agreement, and then, uh, but staff have been in basically every day. Um, to review, you know, defend defensive coach has put up a review of the defensive actions midfield forwards, stoppages, which is, you know, corner kicks, throw-ins or whatever set plays High performance team. We've had a review, we've had a cultural review yesterday, so it's pretty comprehensive. Yeah, so it's just interesting because I think I might have said before on this podcast in my last game at Liverpool it was at Sunderland away, it was the last game of the season and Blokes were turning up with their Gucci travel bags and you know all that sort of stuff.

Darren Burgess:

So they were off to Newcastle Airport afterwards and, yeah, so interesting, interesting process. I don't know which I prefer, because you can get paralysis by analysis. And, yeah, so interesting, interesting process. I don't know which I prefer, because you can get paralysis by analysis. But it is good to go through and have a look at what you did well, what you do differently and potential changes. Which brings us to our first official topic.

Jason Weber:

First official topic, which is the job interview process for young bucks.

Darren Burgess:

Yeah, we've. So the Adelaide Crows have advertised recently for three positions and, yeah, one is a strength coach, one is a head of sports science and another is a head of fitness and conditioning and we had four each, I think, each position. We averaged about 90-odd applicants for each and essentially, the CV culling process. A lot of organizations overseas are doing that through AI, which is interesting. You've just got to address the criteria. We had that option to do that, but we didn't go down that path.

Darren Burgess:

I just feel like it's a bit impersonal and it can't quite nail everything. And so I just get a massive, big spreadsheet sent from the people and culture, people with name, occupation, you know previous employees, previous AFL experience, salary expectations, you know A, b, c, a whole bunch of stuff. And yeah, from that cull down and go down that process and for each of the positions we interviewed five or six. And yeah, it was just an interesting process, I guess. And I thought today, you know, we'd spend the next five minutes or so talking about what people can do to enhance their process.

Darren Burgess:

And obviously both you and I have employed a bunch of people in our time and gone through this process ourselves, and I had the misfortune this week of informing sort of five people that were really close to the head of fitness and conditioning position and five people that I knew, or a few that I knew pretty closely, that they weren't successful. So that's not a lot of fun, but, yeah, it was a thorough process. We're obviously very happy with the successful candidate. Yeah, but the sports scientist is Alec Buckfield, who you know well, so we couldn't be more pumped about that.

Jason Weber:

Just for anybody who is in the sports science bracket, when your nickname is Brains, right, and that's on your resume and it's confirmed, that's your nickname. I didn't just make that up. You're going to do all right, but Brains. I've got on the soapbox about sports science quite regularly. He's the real deal, correct, he is the real deal.

Darren Burgess:

He's programmed in everything that you've spoken about in Python and R, but also in MATLAB and design. So he's going to bring a very different dynamic to the club and I'm looking forward to working with him. We appointed internally for the strength coach position a guy called Rob Jarrett, and that's pretty exciting. He's worked with our AFLW and worked with our men's team for a while, and the head of fitness and condition hasn't quite put pen to paper, so I won't announce that yet.

Jason Weber:

It's worth making a point just on alec, like because alec's been around a long time, but is it appropriate to talk about his previous employment, because that's an interesting one? Yeah, because for sports science guys. So he worked with the philadelphia 76ers for phillies baseball oh, phillies baseball.

Jason Weber:

What that's right. Sorry, I said basketball, philly's baseball, but he worked from South Australia, you know so, and it's really interesting dynamic to be able to work with an institution, an organisation like that from Australia. So I mean, I think that the opportunities for people who bring very specific skill sets and brains does have a very strong skill set, particularly in biomechanics very good. So it's a path for other sports scientists to think about.

Darren Burgess:

Yes, and Amber who left us. She left voluntarily to go and be with her partner, calvin, who we mentioned last week. And I also got a message from the head of performance at Everton saying that we had been a bit fearful of, and maybe put the fear into Calvin a bit when we spoke about the pressure that he might be under having just done his job.

Darren Burgess:

So I do apologise, apologize, there's no problem with that. Uh, jack nailer, who's an absolute star and one of the best in the business, correct? Yeah? Uh, we didn't mean to do that, we're just using that as an example. But yeah, alex ember, ember brings a phd in sports science and what she doesn't know about, you know, applying GPS, practically applying GPS, isn't worth knowing. Alec brings that other skill set, skill acquisition work that he's done for me in a couple of clubs in the past, and biomechanics with Cycling Australia, and so you know that sports scientist who has a lens on a whole range of different data points. So we're excited about Alec, we're excited about Rob.

Darren Burgess:

But I guess the things that I noted down that are worth talking about.

Darren Burgess:

Number one is this salary expectations thing.

Darren Burgess:

If the job and we'll just use a salary arbitrarily, jase, let's say the job is $100,000, right, any currency is 100 grand, right, any currency, and you see an opportunity to get 130 grand right and say $130,000 is my expectation and the people and culture person on the phone says it's $100,000, you, basically you're out of the race essentially, if you say my expectation is $130,000. And I don't know if these, by the way, if these conversations took place so I've got to be a little bit careful here. But what I know is the expectation is $100,000 and you say, no, but I want $130,000 or I want $140,000. I don't want to go backwards. That's absolutely fine and you're well within your rights to do that and I've said that on a couple of different occasions over the past 20 years and then just not going through with the application when I'm going for my own, you know, for positions of my own, because the salary expectation wasn't, you know, quite enough, and that's fine. But that is a really tight in the AFL in the soft cap space there is room.

Darren Burgess:

There's not, I will get the job and then negotiate up. That is a really hard and particularly with the head of fitness conditioning, there was a lot of really experienced people applying for the role and and they didn't get the job. Not because they weren't the most capable person for the job or, um, the best set of qualifications for that role, but essentially, um, we, we want the best person for that role, but essentially we want the best person for that salary bracket.

Jason Weber:

Yeah.

Jason Weber:

It wasn't 100 grand, so before no Everyone jumps on the tongue, but I think it's a great point, mate, what I would say. So I had a recent experience where I put my hand up for a national sporting position which I've had a lot of experience in and it was more about I felt I could really contribute. But when I went through the screening process, so the recruiter rings me up and says, yeah, how's the chat? And I would say the recruiter was overly familiar with me, which didn't spin my wheels from the outset, but he asked questions which were fine. But one of them was I live in Perth, Western Australia, and this organisation are based on the East Coast. And he said, oh, you're coming back to the East. And I said, no, not specifically. I live here, but I'm interested to discuss the role and all the rest of it.

Jason Weber:

But what ended up happening is I didn't even get an interview. Now I'm going to hope that I didn't get an interview because of where I said I lived and that I wasn't going to move initially. So my point in all this is let's just assume that's what happened, that they didn't bother. Okay, he could be good, but he doesn't want to move from WA. But I think to Darren's point. I think, with the way there's, because there's so many people going for jobs, there's two parts. One is what does your resume convey? And then two is get the job. Like I think there's that part. Like I feel like I didn't even get a chance to represent myself in that position because they bypassed me, because someone in an intermediate role said, well, he's not going to relocate, but we never discussed that.

Darren Burgess:

Yeah, yeah, that's a completely different story, isn't it? Yeah, but I think even with your thing about price.

Jason Weber:

I think you've got to get to the interview. You've got to get in. I know there are limitations for some people and, as we've talked about with older guys in the system trying to come back in or whatever, there may be expectations, but I sometimes still think and you've got to weigh this up for yourself is there a risk of you not even getting an interview because of the AI? What if the AI goes? Oh, he says 130 when the job's 100? Well, he's out.

Darren Burgess:

Yeah, that would happen. Yeah, that would happen. So it's a two-edged sword.

Jason Weber:

You've got to weigh it up. You've got to weigh up what you're conveying and how much you want it and whether that's part of a step forward for you.

Darren Burgess:

Well, and the other thing. The other point and we've gone on a bit about this, but just to finish for me is the old reference check. I rarely phone a reference check. I rarely phone a reference. So you know, with the people in the most recent interview process I'm sure HR people in culture sorry, at the club phone In fact I know they phone their references to get an official reference check. But I found, I reckon, eight people per final six interview that I knew had worked in the club at the time.

Darren Burgess:

So you've just got to be a bit aware that that's what's going to happen and, like I said, honestly, all six people for the head of fitness and conditioning could have done the job and I would have been really happy with and ultimately the decision that went down. But the reference checks all checked out and they're all good citizens, but it's yeah, the CV is one thing and most of the really good ones just put a one pager. Here's my experience. That's what it is. Don't go to too much trouble. The only issue that I would have if, or the only piece of advice that I would have is I know that some big overseas clubs just filter it through AI. So in the cover letter, you need to address the criteria or whatever it is.

Jason Weber:

Take your high school references off your CV. For young guys, I don't care where you went to high school, I don't care that you were a checkout chick at some point. We don't need all that detail. I think you should look closely at how you do your resume. Anyway, we're not here to do resume checks. The other one that bobbed up through the week that a question that specifically came from probably one of our 10 listeners was about mentoring, which I like the question. The question was really aimed at well, what do we do? How do?

Jason Weber:

As a young guy, I think you've got to evaluate when you get jobs. So there's two there's the job you get and who you're working with and who you can loan off. There's also the people that you surround yourself. So if you ever get interviewed by me, one of the questions I will ask you is tell me about your heritage, right? So where's your professional heritage? Who have you worked with? Who do you read and who's sort of read and study right? What coaches, not just academic plan what coaches have you learned off? So I would say I've learned extensively off Charlie Francis and Dan Fath. Neither of them I've met. I'm one degree removed from Dan Fath, but I've never met them, but their training philosophies and approaches are very central to what I now call my philosophy. So understanding that for you is critical.

Jason Weber:

But when you go to a job, ideally you want to position yourself with people who you're going to learn off. You want to learn off good people. Now I'll flip that on its head and say that I think it's also then the responsibility of the older guys to teach. I don't like situations where you get the old bull just keeping his cards to the chest and not. I don't share this. This is my secret sauce. Yeah, probably not. I'm more about, and I certainly. My last AFL gig, which was for a long time like 12 years, it was a long time was the idea to make it like a teaching hospital. We encourage people to come through and get people to learn roles so they can fill it out. But I think you've got to look at that when you're, yes, there's getting a job, but there's also getting a job with people you can learn off.

Darren Burgess:

Yeah, I think that's really important, as, like you said, as and not necessarily I want to live in this city or I want to, you know, be in this league or something like that, but it is who and what you can learn off. I take it pretty seriously in terms of developing staff and, yeah, that's a massive one. What about paid mentorships? Like if you're a young guy coming through, a young girl coming through the system, yeah, would you and yeah, you had the means, would you pay someone for a mentorship?

Jason Weber:

Well, here's the thing. So for a number of years probably 10 years ago now I used to run. I used to offer a mentorship in my old bull fitness which, funnily enough, we mentioned Jack Naylor. But when I went to meet Jack at Everton recently, he said I only took the meeting because I know you from old bull fitness, which, funnily enough, we mentioned Jack Naylor. But when I went to meet Jack at Everton recently, he said I only took the meeting because I know you from old bull fitness and I wanted to meet you and I'm like, oh well, whatever it takes, man, I'm in the door now. Now you have to talk about species.

Jason Weber:

I used to do some paid stuff but I delivered a course, so I would talk to the individual. So I had four modules that this is what we must do, and then theirs would break out into specifics after that. So there was a very big structure to it. So I was very hell bent on making sure I delivered high quality. So I think if you were going to pay for a mentorship, which I think is viable Now I've got a couple of my mentorees, a couple of guys who've done it.

Jason Weber:

One's running an NFL program at the moment. One's head of sports science in an NRL team, one's head of sports science in a super rugby team, and there's a couple others about. So, if you're going to do it, evaluate closely who you're doing it with. Like you've got to go through the ringer, you've got to know this person is the right person for you. I also then think you should get the opportunity to interview them. Like you've got to speak to them, at least go hey, this guy is not a complete wazzle. Like there's got to be some human connection.

Jason Weber:

If you're going to mentor someone, it's a personal relationship because you're trying to help this person's career along, and I personally take that very seriously. So if you're going to do a mentorship with someone, I would ask to speak to them. I would go through their career closely, understand exactly what they've done and interview them with questions. And I think, in my opinion, if I was got a young person asking me those questions, I'd be pumped because it shows their intent to learn and their intent to get value out of what they're doing. And I think, as someone who is in business for themselves, delivering value above and beyond just the rudimentary product that you're selling, is critical and it's all personal.

Darren Burgess:

I think you can't expect to learn everything through on-the-job experiences. I think you can shortcut by speaking to people who have been through it a bit.

Darren Burgess:

So yeah, I'm a big fan of it. I think I've only done really two People who are already in heads of performance roles where they've offered some money for the time and wanted it formalised on official and I've gone through and done that. But it's the thing where I'm, I don't know more likely to do it. I know, say, brett Bartholomew talks about this a lot, where people contact you on LinkedIn and say have you just got 20 minutes for a phone? Call 20 minutes for a phone call.

Jason Weber:

I don't like that Charging people 20 minutes for a phone call. 20 minutes for a phone call. I don't like that Charging people 20 minutes for a phone call.

Darren Burgess:

No, it's more like people expecting to get 30 minutes of your time. You know, next time I notice the Crows are playing in Melbourne, can I just have 30 minutes for a coffee?

Jason Weber:

I'll buy a coffee.

Darren Burgess:

Yeah, yeah, I would say I answer 90% of questions that come through email, like how did you get started or what advice would you give those sorts of things. But sitting down for, you know, an hour coffee with someone that you've never met before, that might be a bit much. So, yeah, have a think about who you choose as your mentor and be prepared to make it formal.

Jason Weber:

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I've just come up, blake. I had a cracking question to ask you, which I just need a second to gather myself. Can you sing a song or tell a joke or something? While I think of it?

Darren Burgess:

I cannot, but we are 29 minutes and 23 seconds.

Jason Weber:

We're 29 minutes. Well, I'm going to have to bring that question to bear on our next episode. Yes, well, it's always a pleasure, mate. I'm glad you've got sunny skies there. It's a beautiful spring day in Western Australia, lovely here and yeah hopefully only one more day of reviews, and then I'm done then you're done off to holidays and we won't see you again for however long I might be getting into the NFL two rounds of the NFL and talk about some of the injuries there.

Jason Weber:

But yeah, some good performances, some interesting, some interesting stuff early on, but we'll see if the Achilles trend continues from last year.

Darren Burgess:

Alright, mate, good stuff early on, but we'll see if the Achilles trend continues from last year.

Jason Weber:

All right, mate, good stuff, good mate, all right, good luck to everyone over the coming week and we will all speak soon. Cheers, cheers, cheers. Thank you, we'll be right back. We'll see you next time.