Two Coaches & a Coffee

Season 2, Episode 39

• Darren Burgess & Jason Weber • Season 2 • Episode 39

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Unlock the secrets of strength and conditioning as we recount our experiences from the action-packed ASCA annual international conference in Brisbane. You'll discover how cutting-edge research is transforming the industry, from using the Apple Watch to correlate sleep with athletic performance to innovative sub-max testing in AFLW. Listen in as experts like Christian Bose and David Watts share their unique insights on cycling structures and periodization plans, and enjoy a captivating discussion with Johan Lati from Infinium that delves into the biomechanics of lumbar-pelvic angles during running. These discussions promise to paint a vivid picture of the latest trends and breakthroughs in our field.

Striking the right balance between professional aspirations and personal commitments is an ongoing challenge many of us face. We open up about career decisions that weigh new opportunities against the need for stability and personal time. Sharing from personal experiences, including the tough call of prioritizing family over a high-profile job offer, we highlight the importance of owning one’s career path and stepping out of comfort zones. This episode emphasizes the value of finding fulfillment in your work, investing in personal ventures, and recognizing the significance of work-life balance, even amidst the demanding realities of our industry.

Entrepreneurship and networking form the backbone of professional growth, and we explore the intricacies of these crucial elements. With a focus on the entrepreneurial mindset needed to tackle new challenges, we discuss the importance of staying engaged with your team while managing demanding schedules and international commitments. Highlighting the significance of adaptability and commitment, this episode aims to inspire you to take proactive steps in your career. As we share our podcast goals with optimism, we invite you to join us on this journey, helping us expand our reach and continue bringing real and engaging content to our loyal listeners.

SpeedSig Intro

Sponsored by SPEEDSIG.com

Jason Weber:

G'day and welcome to Two Coaches and a Coffee Darren Burgess and Jason Webber here. It's been a big week, Burgess, Been on the road. You've been all about what's going on, mate.

Darren Burgess:

It has been a big week. Yes, I spent the weekend up in Queensland, the lovely Brisbane, which turned it on about 34 degrees.

Jason Weber:

Brisbane Vegas.

Darren Burgess:

Brisbane Vegas, which, for the ASCA annual international conference, which was great, gave a talk.

Jason Weber:

ASCA being Australian Strength and Conditioning Association, because we have found out we've got about three or four listeners in the US. That's what it sounds like. I got one the other day who claimed he was one of the first 10. Wowee, that was exciting. No good, yeah, there was a couple of US people there.

Darren Burgess:

Yeah, yeah, it was a good mix of domestic and international speakers. I had the graveyard shift of the last talk before the dinner, so I don't know whether that's a good thing or a bad thing, but spoke about 25 years' experience. What I did enjoy was some of the up-and-coming research presentations. They allowed for sort of a two-hour period where people went back-to-back 15 minutes. There was 530 people there, so it was a pretty good turnout and, yeah, there were some really good talkers.

Jason Weber:

What was your best new research mate? What's on the books?

Darren Burgess:

What's coming. Look, I'm going to say the Apple Watch research that we're doing at the Crows with Sam.

Jason Weber:

Janetzky. Wow, that was pretty exciting. Gratuitous product placement again. Well, not product placement.

Darren Burgess:

He's worked hard. We found through some pretty good stats that there's relationships between sort of common sleep metrics recorded by the Apple Watch and coaches' votes, champion data ratings and some physical metrics. So it really was. We're still discovering, but he submitted publications to follow. But he did really well. We had Brooke Jenner speak about validating some of the physical testing done on AFLW some great submax tests done on AFLW, some great sub-max tests, sub-max testing research. I like Christian Bose's talk on how he sets up the cycling structure for Germany. I loved hearing David Watts, who we're both, you know, big fans of, go through his. Him and his coach went through the periodised plan in a fair bit of detail for one of their cyclists, which was that's a bit of a different sport for me, so enjoyed that. I'm missing out a whole bunch of people, but Lucky Wilmont did a really good talk on just some advice really for working in team sports and some of the things to look out for.

Darren Burgess:

Enjoyed listening to a couple of the old bulls, rob I was about to say Rob Snowden, but that's not it A couple of the old bulls talk about 40 years in strength and conditioning. So you know, guys like Julian Jones and just some of the lessons that they gave were awesome.

Jason Weber:

So yeah, it was good I enjoyed it.

Darren Burgess:

Enjoyed catching up with some people I haven't been in 10 years since I've been to the conference, so it was good.

Jason Weber:

While you were doing that on Saturday night, I spent Saturday evening with Johan Lati from Infinium.

Darren Burgess:

Oh nice.

Jason Weber:

Yeah, we had a good hit out about an hour and a half of the very best of hamstring and running by mechanics and he presented at Rob Pacey or Rob Pacey's Sports Myth Rehab Conference up in Manchester. So he's got some interesting thoughts. He's really going down the path of he's interested in what's happening at the pelvis and particularly anterior rotation, and I shared with him some data that I've just finished. Last week with one of my honours students from Curtin University Engineering We've had a look at quantifying lumbopelvic angle in stance phase in both braking and propulsion. So he was really interested in that. But I think Johan is one of those guys at the moment who is a smart cat?

Jason Weber:

but he's very practical. He's trying to figure out, well, how do we take all the work that's been done by the various people around the place. You know he's very tight in that research group with JV Morin, jordan Mendigucci, all that so very like an awesome group of practitioners. Johan just seems to be to me me to be one of those guys who, albeit a very strong scientist, I believe he's really working hard in the practical space to make it usable for himself and when you talk to the guy mate, he's genuine. He's a coach, 100% yeah, okay, like he's not. He doesn't speak like a researcher. He speaks with research intelligence. There's no question. Yes, but um, yeah. So I mean, he's got some good papers out there at the moment um producing more work, the, if anyone's interested, I think, the uh paper by romero 2022.

Jason Weber:

Um looking at um lumbar pelvic angles. Uh, j Johan was the second author on that, but I spent a lot of time on that paper in the last two weeks. They did some great clustering analysis for anyone who's nerdy in that space, but very, very good. And I think there's an interesting direction, because when I obviously talk about the speed-sick thing, I talk about this idea of water-cooler conversations. Now a water cooler conversation is when everyone stands around and goes.

Jason Weber:

I think it's this. I think it's that, when we've got no data whatsoever, um, so to be actually be in a place where we could quantify what's happening with that pelvis um, certainly, from speed, sick perspective, gratuitous product placement, I don't care, I'm allowed to. Um is, we know what's happening with hip lock now. You know with what's happening in the frontal plane, but, as johan's working, that that anterior rotation and there's going to be two things is the rotation, the pelvis itself, but there's also the angulation of the entire thorax, which is incredibly interesting because you've only got to look at again.

Jason Weber:

If I reference that Romero 2022 paper, they had some great little graphics in there just looking at what happens as you rotate forward, because you can't get the front side mechanic. You've actually got to kick your leg out to create step length and it puts your hamstring in a really vulnerable position. So I think it's something we've always known, but to actually quantify it and start getting it to a usable fashion, I think, is really, really cool. So keep an eye out for Johan. I think he's doing some very, very cool work.

Jason Weber:

So, what about a little bit of advertising, mate? So you've done ASCA this week. We've got Darren and I next week, november 22, are doing a one-hour episode of two coaches and several coffees for Exercise and Sports Science Australia. So ESSA, the high-performance workshop. So we're going to do a live version. So I'm still trying to figure out exactly how people can ask questions, but we're going to do it live Because we're so skilled and unscripted. We're just going to go without a net. We're going to fly into it for an hour.

Darren Burgess:

I think maybe people can send in questions now, for it can't they.

Jason Weber:

I asked a question yesterday. I think SR admin is still figuring that out. But yeah, whether it's live, I mean that would be a bit risky, wouldn't it? Letting someone just get on the line and say whatever they want, we could get anything.

Darren Burgess:

No, but if they have any questions now we can answer them live potentially. But anyway, let's hope that some people turn up to it.

Jason Weber:

Well, I reckon there's 15 listeners from two coffees and a coach that will come along. I think we're getting pretty close to 20 listeners. To be honest, darren, I think there's so many people claiming sort of 15 to 16 at the moment. I think there must be.

Darren Burgess:

Yeah, there was a bunch at ASCA that said well done. But it was interesting some of the conversations up there and I'm not necessarily in that environment anymore. I made the joke that I didn't run with on stage because you know I thought I might offend some people but you had your, your um exhibition halls. You know you vowed your play, your hawkins, your alpha fit, your, all those sort of people, and they were all giving out free shirts. I've never seen so many extra large bodies in medium shirts.

Darren Burgess:

It was just ridiculous they were just everywhere, but having a couple of conversations with people who were and this is close to both of our hearts at different stages looking at jobs but were debating about taking the leap from current job, moving families interstate. There was a gentleman there. I won't say his name in case he doesn't want it to be public, but he's upping his family and moving west to Perth to take up a role there. Yeah, and I was just full of admiration that he was.

Jason Weber:

What? The 10 people that are over here? Yeah?

Darren Burgess:

that he was doing that and I thought it might be useful for us to have a discussion because we've both done that at different times about the cost benefit. How did you do it? Did you? Was it purely a financial thing? Was it an experience thing? Did you write a list? Did you? How?

Jason Weber:

have you done it, I reckon, so early days you gotta get what you can get. So my first pro job I had to move to queensland from sydney, so I did that with partner or both? Yeah, had long-term girlfriend asked to marry me. Let's go, got on with that.

Jason Weber:

But then the big move I did from such a romantic go on yeah, I know I there is a story to that, but I won't go on that publicly but my big move from Sydney to Perth I saw that as a step. I mean, I thought I always got told very early on you're going to have to move to get the job you want. So I had the job I wanted for a couple of World Cups with the Wallabies. But the next job, the next economic stance in Australia, is AFL, because it's the next biggest gig. Exactly the same as if someone said we want you to come to the EPL, like you experienced. That's a bigger economy. You've got to go. But I will tell you, um, those things.

Jason Weber:

I brought two very young children to perth and now they're graduated university and all sorts of things. We've been here a long time but I recently had the opportunity to step back into the afl, was offered a position in victoria and I actually had thought you, I'm going to be able to do this, the family will stay here in Perth, I'll move over, We'll come back and forth, It'll all be good. But when push came to shove, mate, I did write a list. I very much went through and said what am I doing here? Is this valuable? Is this worth the effort. And the top of the list was family. There's no way I'm compromising, not the least of which. To be very honest, I've spent a lot of time and money on a business now that I'm just doubling down on. But yeah, so the list thing never before, but this year definitely and family was number one, top of the list.

Darren Burgess:

Yeah, okay, and so is it fair to say that, no matter what was in the pro column, the big capital letters family in the con column.

Jason Weber:

So the only thing that was me probably working on old budgets from AFL but had the pros been a financial situation that really advantaged my family. Say, for instance, you went and took a big job like you've done. You went and took big jobs north right Now. If I was in that position and those jobs were a financial benefit to my family, I would have maybe gone the heart of the yard, but they weren't really. They certainly in this case weren't. I'm not mate. The club that I was speaking to were fantastic, absolutely awesome. But compared to what I'm not mate, the club that I was speaking to were fantastic, absolutely awesome.

Jason Weber:

But compared to what I'm doing in other areas.

Darren Burgess:

It wasn't a big enough leap for me. So family were number one. It's not necessarily. I guess that's the thing that people either don't and perhaps ought to consider. Like there's been people who've said, oh, you've had more clubs than whatever to me, and that's true. I've moved around a fair bit and it hasn't always been for money or anything like that right, so certainly made this move purely for family reasons, going from the team who came first to the team who was not. Certainly not. So yeah, purely for family reasons. But we're in a bit of a different stage. If you're a 25-year-old trying to make your way and make a name, then you might make some different decisions.

Darren Burgess:

You might have something different in the pro and cons list Correctly?

Jason Weber:

But of course you will and different people are going to have different things. I think if you've got, it depends on how old your kids are. We worked really hard to stay in one place where we got kids through school and we were very man. I worked hard, team Fremantle. I was there for a long time and that was all good. But there are other considerations. Now you bring up an interesting point about moving around. Now I look at your career. Yeah, you've moved around more than I have, but you haven't moved around as much as some I know there are guys.

Jason Weber:

There are people out there who have gone one and two years at every job. Now I'm going to pose a question. I know there are guys, there are people out there who have gone one and two years at every job. Now I'm going to pose a question. So there's that guy, there's the guy who I know, there's guys out in the industry who have got a couple of championship rings that they did two years there, two years there, two years there and they kept moving. So did they just get to the right place at the right time, who knows? But I spoke to a guy recently who had an experience similar to me. He got offered a big job, big change in afl, but he decided to stay where he was because he said I've only got one year. If I leave, I've got to have one year on my resume and that doesn't look good yeah, now I got Now.

Jason Weber:

I got offered the Wallabies job back in 2000. And at that time I had one year on my resume at New South Wales Rugby. Sorry, it was 2001. I got offered that I had one year at Waratahs and I said no because I'd gone one year, 18 months at the Reds, one year at the Waratahs. Then what happens if that had gone bad? So yeah, I made the decision not to take the jump up, even though it was money and everything, because I needed to have some continuity for my resume Sure.

Jason Weber:

So I agree, I think there are people's lists are going to be very, very different at different times and, yeah, you're going to have to move the pieces around the chessboard.

Darren Burgess:

Yeah, I guess on the other side of that and I'm more posing the questions for you than answering them myself but I guess one of the frustrating things is when people say, a there's no jobs in our profession. But that's a bit, you know, short-sighted and narrow-minded. At the ASCA conference, for example, there were streams on high school, there were streams on tactical, there were streams on military, there were streams on youth development. You're not working in pro sports at the moment and you're doing just fine with the two areas that you're focusing on at the moment.

Darren Burgess:

So that's one thing that frustrates me, and the other is when people um sort of um don't take ownership of their career or aren't or are too afraid to take risks and say, leave their comfort zone you know, there's as much as I can understand you and your situation, um, maybe me and mine, with with kids that are 13 and 12, um, but with at some point in your career, like you said at the start, you have to, you know, you just have to go and you have to, but I think otherwise.

Darren Burgess:

Just accept the fact that it's yes um you, you're going to be in maybe not as glamorous, or you're not going to advance your career as well, or just accept the fact that that's you know. It's a good career and you can be stagnant, and no problem at all.

Jason Weber:

But I do think, mate, I think your idea like you and I have both taken risks, mate. I've moved several times, not overseas, but I've certainly gone interstate and I've taken small children on the road and all that stuff and you've moved plenty. So I think in that regard, like we've done our dues. So for me, I'm not being risk averse by not taking the job in AFL, I'm literally saying I'm not prepared to give up the time with my family, like little things. Like you're at home in the afternoon, my children come home from work, my wife comes home from work, I work at home, everyone has a coffee in the afternoon, you hang out. It's just the most the best part of life at the moment. So giving that up I'm not prepared to give. That I will tell you categorically. I have given overs to previous jobs, like I've given everything, and you know what I mean.

Jason Weber:

Like you give yourself to the exception of everything else and I think there's in some regards it's silly on my behalf, but it's also sometimes what clubs demand is that you go. Everyone says you've got to give more, give more, and I don't give that much anymore to others. I give now to my business, because 100% what happens in my business is my responsibility. The outcome is based on my input. Mate, you can work and you know this. You can go 120%. You're going overboard hours and hours and extra this and that, but if the coach doesn't get it, the players don't get it, the players don't care. All those things happen. The coach does something stupid, makes ridiculous decisions, got nothing to do with you. That effort of yours cannot be realised and may not even be realised to the point of hey, we recognise this guy's doing a great job. He might get a job elsewhere, because no one will know. So I think you've got to weigh up what are you prepared to give and get, because it's got to be a two-way street.

Jason Weber:

It is remuneration, but sometimes it's the job that you covet.

Darren Burgess:

Yeah, and if, in your example, if you had have and obviously I don't know all the details, but if you had have gone and accepted the most recent role or roles in the past that you've been offered, yeah, you have to go in there knowing, okay, I have accepted this. I know what I'm walking into and I'm going to accept the late nights, the weekends, the public holidays, the don't complain about it, no, just accept it.

Darren Burgess:

That's what you're walking into and embrace it and say, yep, I was speaking to somebody today who's been in the industry longer than both you and I and he said I still love the weekends, I love the game day. I just love it you know, and that's why some people do it.

Jason Weber:

Well, I had a conversation last night with the head of an international rugby federation who's my age I'm a little bit older than you and anyway he was saying the same as me. I'm just tired of going to the gym every day. Now I'm the same. I can't. You know what I can't do? Just put cones on the field. I can't, can't do it. I'm done, cooked. Had enough of that.

Darren Burgess:

My mates none of which will be listening to this take photos of cones wherever they see them and just send them to me, as if I put them out there, because that's what they think I do for a living and did for years on end.

Jason Weber:

Well, we did mate, oh yeah of course.

Jason Weber:

But in the same breath like I can't do that. But I'm in business for myself. Now your point is exactly. It's almost an entrepreneur's mindset in that I've signed on to something. Now I started work at quarter to six this morning. I started work. I didn't get up. I started at quarter to six. I finished at 11 last night. Right, so I accept that's what I have to do. But because it's in my mind, because it's fresh, it's a new challenge and it's different and there are other challenges. It's not the same stuff I did before. It's refreshing. I personally have got to the end of my team tether. I don't think I could do another full team gig, not in the way I used to.

Darren Burgess:

Yeah, but it has changed you wouldn't go into that same gig like I don't take warm-ups or do you know that sort of stuff anymore? Like you. Just, that's just what you you don't do. But it doesn't mean that you've got to be careful that you're not engaged with the playing group, because that's really really important um in in my role. But yeah, I think, I think my point of bringing it up is okay. What are the pros and cons of that situation? Um, you're right, different people have different um will have different lists. But I think, yeah, I think, once you make that decision.

Darren Burgess:

So I'm on the chair of the fief pro high performance advisory network. We've got um unbelievable sporting directors and um high performance directors all over the world and predominantly in Europe, and so our last meeting started at 1am and finished at 4. So you just go. Okay, that's what it is. This morning I was on the advisory board of a tech company that's based in London and you know the meeting's at 4am. That's just we're doing. Advisory board of a tech company that's based in London and you know the meeting's at 4 am. That's just what happens. So it's not. This is not to say how wonderful we are, so I apologise if people are taking it that way. It's more just to say this is what it's like. You know, we spoke about Phil Coles a couple of episodes ago. Imagine if he goes to the Boston Celtics. Yeah, I'm going to come over, but I don't really fancy traveling.

Darren Burgess:

He's at the stage now where he can be a bit more flexible but in the initial stages he did the hard yards and there's plenty of others doing the same.

Jason Weber:

I think, in all walks of life and I'm happy to speak to this from a business side you've got to bite it off more than you can chew and then chew like crazy. Because if you think and people talk about it and I did me thinking, hey, yeah, I've got this idea, I'm going to create a business Mate I was so ill-prepared, ill-prepared for what has come. Like I said, I'm the CEO, I'm the chief, everything officer, I do everything from marketing.

Jason Weber:

I'm doing research. At the moment I'm still writing code. Um, you know you're meeting with clients, you're fixing problems, this, that the other thing, mate, you've got to order more belts from pakistan. I've got to get them warehoused in the uk, in the. It's everything, but you commit to it 100 and I think you're dead right. That's the point. The bitching and moaning that you don't have this, you don't have that. I think you've got to get on with it. The job is mobile. The people in the. There's guys in the US. We even know the great Dave Carillon is not, you know, not currently living at home. He has to work away. He drives a couple of hours and I've got. I was meeting last night with one of my clients in the US and, mate, he's moved all over the place in the last couple of years.

Darren Burgess:

Well, dave has had more clubs than all of us put together. Let's be honest.

Jason Weber:

Yeah, yeah, but that's a journeyman mate. That's what the greats do they walk the paths right, exactly.

Darren Burgess:

He's had more experiences too. Um, I, I, uh will finish with um, one of the slides I put up at asker was, uh, at one of the previous clubs and you know I won't go into details, but uh kept the staff kept saying, when I got in, the coach won't let us do it, the coach won't let us do it, the coach won't let us do it, and just continually complained of what we couldn't do. So I gave them a list of about 28 things. I think I've got two of things that we can do in and around the coach. So, whether that's, you know, assistant coaches, player education, you know all that sort of stuff.

Darren Burgess:

So, and just ban that. So, um, you know, we've, we've had, uh, some restructuring at our club and we have had one, two people move um with families to come into the club. Yeah and and yeah, same with them. If I hear them say you know, I didn't expect to work weekends or something like that, you go, hang on, you, you know what you're signing up to, but I'm sure they'll be fine yeah look, mate, there's no question, we've got a mobile job.

Jason Weber:

I think what I tell you what's a factor maybe to look out for for young guys and more young guys and girls and same I'll just throw this out there. I've got a couple of guys that I've worked with, certainly in and around the AFL, who had good jobs for long tenures. I think a long tenure early can be misleading.

Darren Burgess:

Yeah, it can be dangerous.

Jason Weber:

I think you and I don't need people just to move for moving sake. But I've said to you know three of my really strong guys that worked for me for a long time you've got to get ready to go. Better to do it under your own steam and your decision than get to a point where people just go man, you're here for 10 years, they flip you. It does happen. So I think and I'd say this of something I didn't do well early and I was probably lucky in some regards with. But I do think the networking thing is important, and I don't I mean people keep talking about the side hustle. I've got to have a side hustle, you know. So be it, that's a thing.

Jason Weber:

But I think connecting with people, understanding who's around, doing something that allows you to communicate to other people, to show your work. There's a great book If anyone ever watches this video, one of my favourite books of all time I was putting it up on screen, darren can see it, but it's a book called Show your Work by a guy named Austin Kleon. He's written a couple of books, a very short book, lots of pictures in it. For me, so it was really easy to read.

Darren Burgess:

It's good for me, yeah.

Jason Weber:

But the whole idea is that you read the little tagline here 10 ways to share your creativity and get discovered. Now that's part of the work is communicating. What you do Now is that. I mean, in this day and age of social media, do you just post a story about what you're doing? This is where we're at. I'm not trying to sell it, I'm not trying to, I'm just getting out there. I did hear someone go on a job interview in our industry a little while ago and someone got binned because they didn't have a social media profile, which I thought was horrific. I heard that and I thought that is absolutely horrific. But the other thing is you've got to play to the environment. If that's the way the world is working now, if people are looking online, I think you've got to share your work, like how who knows who knows what you're doing. If you're trying to get into AFL, what AFL guys know what work you're doing? It's a difficult thing. It's a difficult thing, but I think it's a value to try and do.

Jason Weber:

I know one of the young blokes who work with me, jackson Dennis, who's still at Fremantle. Great, great young coach, is going to be an awesome. Run his own program very, very soon, I hope. But I met Jackson when he was two or three years before I hired him. Met him, thought great coach, just not ready yet. When he was ready, bang, get him in there. But that was almost a network job. He did a great job, presented himself excellent. So I think that's something for young ones to take away. Is how can I make that connection? Do you just walk up to Darren Burgess at ASCA and say hey, you know I'm Jason, I need a job man, or love your work? I do something similar. I don't know. It's difficult, I'm not very good at it. I think there's ways you can do it for sure, for sure.

Jason Weber:

Well, you're one of the great networkers of all time, my friend.

Darren Burgess:

Well, I think I got lucky early on in that I got that job with the Socceroos, so you got to look around a lot and make some connections a lot in that time and connections there like Dave, caroline and those guys that I've been friends with since then. So that's what's going to help me.

Jason Weber:

It's an interesting one. Like I had the Wallabies job for a long time. But the Wallabies, well, the meeting I had last night was with a guy I met through that. There's no question. If people ask you what was the most effective job you had, there's no question in my mind. Having the Wallabies job has for a long time, two World Cups. It was unquestionably valuable, as you have had valuable, highly valuable jobs.

Darren Burgess:

Indeed sir, and still do, still do.

Jason Weber:

The mighty crow is rushing to the top of the table next year.

Darren Burgess:

On that optimistic note, we will call it a day. Avail ourselves of this You're travelling on Saturday, but we'll try and get one done in before the ESSA stuff so that we can advertise more.

Jason Weber:

And yeah, We'll see if we can get over 20 listeners. That's what we're aiming for Big 20 by the end of the year. So yeah, get out there and tell your friends about us. Anyway, buddy, good to see you you are a good remainder of the week and uh, yeah, everyone on who's listening to our somewhere between 15 and 17 listeners. It's always a pleasure and we look forward to uh training with you real soon.

Darren Burgess:

Try to do real shit, bye.