Two Coaches & a Coffee
With nearly 60years of professional experience between them across the world in Premier League, International Rugby, AFL and consulting in a plethora of other sports and industries; two old bulls of the performance, injury prevention, and rehabilitation world: Darren Burgess and Jason Weber catch up over a brew and discuss all things Sports Performance.
Two Coaches & a Coffee
Season 3, Episode 1
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In our first podcast back for 2025, we explore the unique challenges faced by professional athletes during their training, including the impact of holiday breaks and irregular schedules on performance and injury rates. The episode highlights the shared responsibility between athletes and coaches, emphasizing the importance of communication, monitoring loads, and maintaining wellness.
• The value of breaks in team sports and their implications
• Challenges of training continuity in elite leagues
• The scale of managing player training in MLB vs AFL
• Importance of athlete accountability in injury prevention
• Discussion on emerging technologies for assessing fatigue
• Navigating cooperation between internal staff and external trainers
• Balancing team strategies with individual athlete needs
• Reassessing training protocols to enhance player readiness
SpeedSig Intro
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G'day and welcome to Two Coaches and a Coffee. We're back G'day, Darren good to have you back, man.
Speaker 2:Good to see you again, jason, looking well and fit over the Christmas period.
Speaker 1:I don't know about fit man. I think I'm one of the great weight gainers in this world. I think I, as an athlete as a very poor athlete, which is what all S&C coaches are yeah, I put weight on as a youngster and I continue to do it to this day, so not a good thing. Bit of fun, though. How are you traveling?
Speaker 2:day, so not a good thing. Bit of fun, though. How are you traveling?
Speaker 1:yeah, going okay um, yeah, decent break and a few things happening, but uh, all good mate, all good I think, uh, real, real quickly for the, uh, the folks around the world, um the afl mandate, a three-week break for players and staff over Christmas, which I, having been out now five seasons, I miss radically. I think that's a great break.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's interesting because I understand there's a bit of media around in the last day or two because there's some pretty serious injuries in the AFL happening. Last week we had you go three weeks training before Christmas. So the players have 10 to 12 weeks away from the club, three weeks compulsory sort of training before Christmas. Then you have a compulsory three-week break over the Christmas period, which will work the life balance. So let's put that on the shelf. It's really good. So it's a great league to be part of in terms of comparing to global leagues, because you get that free time to spend with your family and travel and whatever else you might need to do. Then you come back from January 9th I think is a compulsory day back, and then there's two compulsory four-day breaks between then and the season starting.
Speaker 1:Oh, I forgot about that, yes.
Speaker 2:So then you have to put those in somewhere and you start, you know, semi-meaningful games mid-Feb. So you've got to, and then the season starts sort of some early March, but most of it's mid-March. So when you put that together, combined with compulsory one day a week off sorry, compulsory two days a week off, not allowed to train past 8am or 9am- On a Saturday.
Speaker 2:Compulsory half day off. And then the other thing which I think is important to throw into the mix is the AFL have all these compulsory educational sessions which you have to do within those times during the week, so they come and do you know respect and responsibility and indigenous and and things like that, which is which all valuable, all valuable valuable then you also have for interstate clubs like us. The AFL take your young players' date for an induction, then they take the AFLPA players' interstate for an induction, then the media broadcast, people say you can't go to Melbourne on this date so that we can film all the promos and things like that.
Speaker 1:For this season. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, it all adds up to an interrupted schedule and you get no continuity of your training, unlike, say, in the, let's say, the NFL, they have an interrupted, sure, but once they're in, they're in for that five, six-week Right to play. Yeah, yeah, without my understanding these interruptions, certainly in the Premier League, once you're in for that five, six weeks you're in. So, yeah, there's some, you know, some talk at the moment my understanding because my text message has been going off this morning about media are finally sort of cottoning on to the fact that, hang on, you know there's some work-life balance ticks, for sure, but yeah, you know the nfl went away from this model because of the tendon disruptions and things like that, because you just don't get that continuity of um of training which allows you to build up the resilience and and so it's been an interesting period and touch wood, the Adelaide Crows have you know sort of escaped, but last year we didn't.
Speaker 2:This is the period of time where we copped some really serious injuries to some of our better players, which undoubtedly affected your season and just your continuity of training. Again, it's worth it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, mate no, no, it's awesome your response because again, five years out, I forgot about all those things. I was really commenting more from a personal level over the three weeks, because it's not just three weeks before Christmas, that's when the senior players come back You're back. Usually, let's say, you exit the finals early, you're back november. So you've been going, you've got eight weeks of of of chaos. What I would say um, just to add the probably to the argument you're sort of staging is is that this period of time, like everyone's ramping their load to get ready for games. So there's not only have you got all the compromises that Darren's just mentioned, but you're also trying to run sessions that are the longer, bigger ones that you might be bookending.
Speaker 1:We used to do a Monday and a Friday where we have big sessions and then we would have the other ones spread through the middle, and so in the space of that, then you've got all those demands that Darren's placing on you. So, yeah, it's an extremely challenging time of year because, as Darren said, I've had conversations through the week and there's even news. So not always in Western Australia do we get news about what's happening in Victorian teams, but there was news last night. One of the young guys at a club over there again big hamstring injury, but they'd all be symptomatic of exactly what Darren's saying. So, yeah, very, very challenging environment.
Speaker 2:Everything that gets thrown into that mix, which I don't know many people think about. But let's compare the Adelaide Crows, my club, to say the Brisbane Lions, who won the flag and have played in the last two grand finals. We finished whenever it was earliest to finish because we didn't make the final. So Brisbane trained all through September, obviously played some pretty intense games and win the flag and best team in the comp, so fantastic, well done. But we come back only one week apart to pre-season. So we had a bigger break, which worked life balance, yes, but we actually get less training in, you know. So the shitter teams are getting less training in, which is, yeah, it's not amazing. I don't know what they can do about it and if my players heard me saying we should come back earlier and all that sort of stuff. But yeah, there's just a few little interesting things that you have to navigate.
Speaker 1:So here we go, just from a context perspective. There you go. There's my phone pinging because there's a football conference in the US at the moment and all my U, all my US guys are messaging me saying what about this presentation or what about that. Anyway, we might talk about that again later. What I was going to say, just for context right, because we're supposed to be talking about performance and the like just quick comparative.
Speaker 1:I had a meeting last night with a guy named Dr Alex Ross who's the Director of Strength and conditioning at the Miami Marlins and we've worked together over a bunch of years. Anyway, he was explaining to me what they're about to walk into. So they're just about to kick off their preseason for Major League Baseball. He has something in the order of 160 players coming in over the next five to six weeks and he's got 14 staff and the way they organize himself it's very, very vertical. So he's got all the S&C guys with him and he said literally what's like you know, 50 to 60 new players every week for the next, you know, seven, eight weeks, they just keep rolling. And I just we were talking last night. And you know, seven, eight weeks, they just keep rolling. And I just we were talking last night and I'm like man, just the scale of that is unbelievable. So, mate, appreciating all the work-life balance and all those things which are awesome, it's interesting particularly for people coming from another environment. So you're Australian, maybe you're EPL, you're soccer model, where it's fairly straightforward to the model where baseball is. You know your major league teams, all through your minor league, all your development teams, which is what they do. They bring in all their like they get a lot of guys from Cuba, all their development teams and they get them all going simultaneously. And I'm just like man, that is such big scale and, in honesty, like Alex is one of those like he's a genuine pro, like he's not a talk, the talk.
Speaker 1:He grew a lot of miles working for Auckland in the super rugby. He's worked with US rugby. He was at the New York Mets for a number, a bunch of years. So he's done a lot of. He's done some big gigs. But even he was saying, look, man, like at the end of the day, if we can get a 7 out of 10 for the whole program, that's probably the best we can hope for. He said we don't have massive facilities and it's just getting them through and keeping them healthy. And again, there's another argument not argument but perspective to this that their direction as a team is that they want to develop players, as opposed to some baseball clubs will say, hey, whatever they do, they do, we'll just get in and play and you buy your talent. It's interesting.
Speaker 2:And I guess that lends weight to your external consultants, because I mean, we talk about athletes being CEOs of their careers and things like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, Situation how could you not and there might be some people who might disagree with this, perhaps, I don't know but how could you not deliver your best guess at a one-size-fits-all program? Like you know, you're kind of, um, you know, even in our situation we've got 45 players yeah which is much more than an nba or a premier league squad, and yeah, yeah so you know we're trying to individualize and we've got the staffing and, hopefully, the knowledge to individualize 45 different programs.
Speaker 2:But at the end of the day, it is a responsibility on an athlete to to come up to you and say, listen, this doesn't quite work for me, or that doesn't work for me, or I'm used to doing this and um yeah, so in that I can't imagine that situation. How interesting no, unbelievable.
Speaker 1:And I think in in many cases you're doing what you just said, like you're creating, you know, buckets, threads for people that you know, based on assessment, you fit into that thread and then, where possible, um, you know, you use the old theory everybody's equal, some are just more equal than others, and if you can get the ones that are super valuable and make those those, those greater levels of tweaks, that's what happens. But interestingly, talking about external consultants, I had a conversation around the AFLW just yesterday and one of the performance managers in that space was saying to me he's only just come back into the system and he was saying I'm shocked, absolutely shocked, at how many of the female athletes will. You know, obviously the clubs provide programs and support and all that, but they can't train them face-to-face. They all go out and train with consultant conditioning coaches, but don't tell anybody. Is that right? Yeah, and so you're on that path, which you do see in the US, where guys will go and train.
Speaker 1:A big thing in the NFL is you go back and train with the college team that you came through with, because you spent a bunch of your formative years with your college team. A lot of them will go back and train with their guys down there. But my question is what do the staff at the club know so that when they come back they just go? Well, they're ready, who cares? Or hey, what have you been doing? Have you covered everything off? Are you doing something new that we should continue? That communication channel just seems very difficult, and I have long heard people in the US say it's so hard to keep track of the cowboys that are out there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think your responsibility when the players athletes come into your program so in the AFLW instance, because they have such a long break, because they're not full time, um, your responsibility is to assess them as best you can when they come into your program, um, but I don't blame. You know some of those, uh, the afl athletes and the crows have been, you know, one of the more successful aflw program. Um, they, uh, they would hire trainers and things like that, because some of them are on, you know, decent money and so in order to continue to earn that money you know it's smart they're investing in themselves, exactly so, and it's just up to you know the mostly part-time staff We've got a couple of full-time staff now in the AFLW program, but mostly part-time staff to do the best that they can when the players walk through the door.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and look, it extends all the way up. I mean, we had the Australian Open just this past week in Australia. Funny, that's where the Australian Open might be. Yeah, it might have been. It was in Victoria, in Melbourne, the centre of Australian sporting capital. So they would have you believe, um, but interestingly, um, I had occasion to be not involved but certainly hear some conversations very directly, um, from some of the players who actually played in the final.
Speaker 1:But what I would say is that even at that level, that the staffing, they're always looking for other connections and for other professionals.
Speaker 1:And I know a very good friend of mine that was involved, not putting any names out, but was involved in one of the athletes and helped them with a very specific treatment protocol and got some amazing results that were even quantified on TV by looking at the way the balls, the rotation of the ball and serving speed and all that. But it's always, everyone's always looking, everyone's looking for the next thing, the solution, and when it comes to certainly, medical issues, I think again, I would still argue this everywhere I think what we do, I would still argue this everywhere I think what we do in teams is we're doing the best we can with what we have, but I think there's a need to do, there's more to be done to find out answers to bigger problems. Do we understand loading completely? No, I don't think we do. I'm not entirely sure I have an answer for the next level, but my point probably with that respect, is we've got to keep looking.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's an interesting question. So I had a conversation yesterday with Selwyn Griffiths from the D's yes, and he was talking about the day in the life, I guess, of a high-performance director or whatever, and just the decisions that you need to make. So you mentioned loading. It's my view, and always has been, that loading is the number one factor that dictates injury.
Speaker 2:I had a conversation with an athlete yesterday, one of our players, who has had a history of groin pain and he was sort of just asking you know, what can I do to make sure that doesn't come back again? And I said well, that's my job to to monitor your loads. As long as you tick your boxes on all the gym and the physio and and things like that that we've put in your program, then leave it to me to um, uh, to sort out your loading. But you also need to have that responsibility a to tick your program off. B to let me know if there's any issues and don't don't play through them. But it is loading that will effective.
Speaker 2:Loading strategy, that will be the number one strategy to make sure that you don't have the issues that you've had over the last couple of seasons. So there was that conversation which led me to think about your loading stuff. Then there was a conversation with one of the strength staff at the club, josh Emanuel, who's done an amazing job while I've been away and one of the up and comers in the strength and power and high performance industry, and he was talking about a conversation that he or a podcast that he was listening to. That was talking about biometric fatigue assessment, so just an eye scan as you walk into a facility. I think Chris McClellan was talking about it on a podcast and so that is another way in which you might assess fatigue and player readiness. But you're going down a really yet to be sort of validated and very passive which can be good pathway in that load monitoring place which is fancy and new and exciting, but yeah, I'm not sure it's ready to be.
Speaker 1:So just to distinguish man, I think obviously I agree with you the training exposure, game, exposure, number one thing, but it's how everybody adapts to that. So it's not that everybody, you know everyone is going to adapt slightly differently. So we're trying that everybody, you know everyone is going to adapt slightly differently. So we're trying to always assess has the athlete backed up? Have they recovered? You know, I always love. I love when we do rehab, the one where we go, oh, we'll run them. We run them today and then we'll see if they survive tomorrow. And if they survive they must be okay, which is fundamentally flawed logic at the best of times. But it's a lot of what we do. The same thing comes, like the big Chris McClellan over there in Florida. It's an amazing world.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah man, I was in Florida last December and we flew past each other. Same thing with Alex Ross. He's in Florida. You go all the way around the world and you miss people by 25 minutes. It's ridiculous. Anyway, chris McClellan is one of the big brains of the world and a big man too, but that flicker rate stuff when you're looking at eyes, that's an old Russian thing Originally. I remember reading that early research. Damn, that was probably late 90s, something like that. I remember reading old papers on that.
Speaker 2:That was your action time and progress yeah yeah, yeah, it's incredibly interesting.
Speaker 1:But when you look at people doing jumps on a force plate or looking at the, the uh, the change in um, your accelerometer signals in running, and we're going, well, that's neurological, it's neuro fatigue. Well, is it? I, I don't know, I can say that it's fatigue if someone jumps and then they go on train, they come back and they can't jump anymore, it's fatigue. But is it? Is it structural? Is it is neurological? I don't know. But I think if you go, if we get down that path of being able to say, hey, the rate at which your eye responds to light and to signal, whatever, um, that is a genuine neurological response. It's like, okay, well, maybe we, we can see something there. But I agree the, the research. I haven't read anything on that recently, but I'll tell you what I'll be bringing chris after this to um connect and see where he's at with it. But remember, um one, you and I actually we shouldn't actually bring up brands that I'm going to hang shit on. It might not be in our best interest, but all right.
Speaker 2:But that's the art of what the science can't tell you. And we had a quick chat before we came online to talk about what we're going to talk about. We haven't even got there yet. The the, the art of it is apply your loading strategy, detect your response and then recalibrate. And it's that response detection. You and I might get the same loading strategy. Um, but I've been crooked the last few days. So, correct, my response is going to be completely different. But how do you get that?
Speaker 2:that's that's the trick, man, yeah yeah, you've just got to choose you poison and stick to it and um, until such time. As you know, the jump testing is a really interesting one, because we could go down a rabbit hole with that oh, it's a rabbit hole, man, I've been there I lived there for 10 years yeah, but um, it's the, the, perhaps the combination.
Speaker 2:As long as you're assessing in a either internally or externally validated, reliable way, both internal and external response to load, then I think you're okay I think I'll probably make a quick point there.
Speaker 1:I one of influenced fairly strongly back in my early career. One of the things I was taught was when you look at a problem, so let's say we're trying to understand fatigue, right, there's no absolute method. Right, like Darren, what we've just described, there's no absolute method. So therefore, assess it from different angles and then you can combine the information again, as long as they're reliable, but you can combine the signals to say, hey, this is a genuine response and I think that's critical. So it's the same as when you look at something like fitness we're assessing fitness. What is fitness? Well, it should be assessed from multiple angles to give you a perspective holistically. So, yeah, there's certainly.
Speaker 1:I think that is a minefield, but I will say that one of the ways I learned to program years ago was on fatigue rates, so trying to understand. So instead of saying, hey, here's a 10K session, whatever you say, we're going to do a session today that will cause a 12% fatigue that will take four days to resolve. So we know that when the next session comes in, we can create a three day fatigue. Now, that's all well and good in theory. Never done it with a team, but I've done it individually and it works incredibly well when you have time and space, but how you, and that's what you understand, within the bounds of the technology and the effort you have or knowledge you have at the time of that person, figuring out when that decay like how much decay is there? When are they ready to go again. But that's the art of team sport, right is? We can't move training around to suit everybody, so you're doing your best to get the sessions in and to fit everybody into that bucket.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:It's crazy.
Speaker 2:And that's why there's a responsibility on the staff, of course, but there's also a responsibility on the athlete, and that's where knowing your athlete becomes great, which, in your baseball example, is virtually impossible.
Speaker 1:Oh, but that comes back to the everybody's equal. Some are just more equal than others. Ross Lyons-ism, right, which is what you're going to do. You're going to say, hey, man, you're worth, you're one of our key players, so I'm going to have my attention. I might spend more time there. We all do it in different ways. Sometimes, you know, the HPM looks after the top 10 players and really zeroes in on them, whereas you might have staff looking after your development guys, Everyone's going to do it. You want to. There's no question. Availability is the key to everything. Keep your players on the park. You're more chance, but keep your highly valuable players on the park, it's way more important.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so for people who the one size fits all, yep, that's important. But it's also really, really, really important that that one size fits your star players, particularly in, you know, sports like, say, nfl or NBA, where those star players can make such a difference.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, absolutely, absolutely. And I don't think there's anywhere any sport that your valuable players make all the difference. And I say, like you, look at the American college football which have you know they finish and they're straight back into winter off-season now. So we're getting lots of testing data happening and we're into all that, but they're the same. They've got 120 kids on the roster, but I can tell you now the amount of work that goes into the top 10 to 12, like most guys will say in college football. If you've got 10 to 12 players on six either side of the ball offense and defense you've got enough to really do something Because you can the rest of the team you can. The guys are good enough to fill a gap. But if you've got 12 really good ones or maybe less say it's 10, five each side you can really go well. So they're going to put more time into that. And that's the, no matter which way you cut it, man, like we are a profession of science and art. There is no question.
Speaker 1:There is no question.
Speaker 2:No, 100%. Now, on that note, mate, I really have to head off.
Speaker 1:You do, mate. It's been awesome to catch up again, mate. I hope that we've uh, our numbers have dwindled massively over christmas break. I must say I needed it, so I hope you got a break but we're back we're back on the horse and we'll get them going. Good to have everyone back and uh let everyone know we're back and uh catch you later, Mike. Good luck.