Two Coaches & a Coffee

Season 3, Episode 9

• Darren Burgess & Jason Weber • Season 3 • Episode 9

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Darren Burgess and Jason Weber examine the personal cost of high-paying jobs in sports performance and why professional standards should never waver regardless of who you're coaching.

• AFL running data shows interesting trends in team performance
• High-paying positions in sport come with significant personal costs
• Work-life balance on social media often presents a deceptive snapshot
• Career progression may require sacrifices early on to establish yourself
• Many high-performance managers currently live away from their families
• The attitude toward coaching should remain consistent across all levels
• Working with Paralympic athletes provides valuable learning opportunities
• Good coaches should be adaptable to any athlete who trusts them
• Belief that you can only coach "elite" athletes is a problematic mindset
• Treat all athletes with the same professionalism regardless of their level
• Skills don't magically improve with "better" athletes – true expertise works at any level


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Jason Weber:

G'day and welcome to Two Coaches and a Coffee Darren Burgess and Jason Weber. With you here. We're back two weeks in a row, Burgess. It's been a struggle, but we got here again. We're back two weeks in a row, Burgo.

Darren Burgess:

It's been a struggle, but we got here again. We got here again, mate, and as we predicted last week because we're back the Crows had a win, so we're not going to miss another week.

Jason Weber:

No we're going to keep at it. Crows had a mighty win and we won't get into it too much. There are a couple of other things on our agenda, but there's some interesting trends you see around the AFL at the moment, like because all the data or not all the data, but a good portion of data gets pushed through the Telstra apps. It's actually I watch what people are doing, what teams are doing, not people what the teams are doing collectively. And you know there's a couple of teams that are succeeding really well without running particularly hard, but other teams, if they don't run, they bomb, they absolutely bomb.

Darren Burgess:

Yeah, it bugs the trend a bit. Footy in terms of global sport by and large.

Darren Burgess:

If you're skilled, you don't need to run, and so you can control the game by and large, but I've found this year more than ever the athletic component of the game is related to performance, particularly if you break it down into segments or quarters. And we played a game where there was very few goals scored, so the ability or the need to sprint wasn't there, because the ball never went out of play, so it was just a grind and you didn't get that sort of 45-second break at the end of each goal.

Jason Weber:

So what was what I was interested in? I've used that data and for any young industrious students out there, here's a project for you. But what I did over three years was look at the difference between the team and the team they were playing. So it's not an absolute, it's how much differential was there between you and the team you played, and I ended up getting to a global, you know, predictor of about 65% probability of getting the right answer for a game. But it is interesting that there, as you said, there are teams that can do it. That other teams just got to run. That's their thing, but it is differential. That's a big, big difference.

Darren Burgess:

For sure, and there's a whole bunch that goes into that as we know. You said something in the two-minute preamble.

Jason Weber:

In the green room.

Darren Burgess:

Yeah, you said something that you wanted to have a chat about around. Do you want to do the attitude one first, or do you want to do the attitude one first, or what do you want to do?

Jason Weber:

Well, let's first things first. I've just had a conversation with a guy I work with which I think is really pertinent and I've felt it a lot, so we'll get to that. But that's the idea of how much time am I giving to this job versus what's the personal cost. And so the question was well, do we start coming in on extra days? Is that really part of what we do? And I've made no fun of it. I work at a government institution now, so it's a lot more regimented how things work.

Jason Weber:

But my response was pretty simple. I said I think I've gone too far in the past and I've taken a big physical, a big personal toll. I've probably neglected my family at different times because of big work commitments, and lots of people do that. But I think you've got to weigh up.

Jason Weber:

If your career is on the way up and you've just got your first big job or you're on the way, maybe you do have to go over this and you have to super commit and all that. And then, when you get the big jobs and you've been in plenty Birger, but I know, working 12 years in the AFL and even with national rugby like you were giving everything to it. But I'm at a stage in my career now where, legitimately, you're getting paid maybe a third of what I've been paid elsewhere for similar timeframes and it's just not there Like I'm coming to work, that's when we're in, that's when we're doing our thing, that's it. So I think there's a real balance to that too far and not ensuring family wellbeing and then your wellbeing within that, because I would be guilty of maybe making some errors there over time.

Darren Burgess:

Yeah, it's a good point and I think we're more aware of it now than we ever have been in terms of the work-life balance of both yourself and your staff. The other thing and this maybe leads into the second part if you follow people on Instagram or TikTok or X or whatever, your poison is and they are working with let's say, they're working with the New England Patriots or New York Knicks, or Pick your Poison and you follow them and very rarely are they posting about their work.

Darren Burgess:

But what they are posting about at times is, you know, a great day with the kids in the snow here, or amazing in Disneyland, or whatever. The chances are that those people like influencers and you know prominent people, even your mates on TikTok and Facebook. I've got no mates on TikTok, but on Instagram or whatever.

Jason Weber:

I'm on TikTok mate.

Darren Burgess:

Yeah, the chances are they are.

Darren Burgess:

They're just snapshots and you can get seduced by it and think, oh, that guy works for the patriots or that girl works for the knicks and she's doing all this stuff with the family, like, and yeah, the chances are it's a snapshot, they're making sure that everybody knows when they do spend time with the family or do go on that run through the bush or whatever it might be. There is a reality to the sport that we're in and you can get, or to the profession that we're in, you can get the like. I could name you eight players who are living, eight high performance managers who are living away from their families currently, and that's okay, that can work, you know, no problem. I'm leaning sort of insights into people's work-life balance from social media, because we never had it at the start, so you just assumed that everybody was either working too hard or getting it right or whatever, whereas nowadays there's that perception that you know it's so great working for the Cleveland Cavaliers because so-and-so is doing it and look what he or she is doing.

Jason Weber:

So you've just got to be a bit careful. I think I couldn't agree more. I would say to you that as jobs get bigger and you get paid more, there is a cost not the cost of the company but you get that new wage that's going up and up and up. The cost to you becomes more and more. I think you've got to give more because there's more being demanded of you. I think if you're in a high-paid job really high and you're sitting back with your feet on the desk like, well, you've clearly done something I'm not doing. But I think there's always a cost Be careful of you know.

Jason Weber:

Some people say be careful what you wish for. You get the big job, but it would cost you. Now I'll be honest and say November last year I got offered a job to go back in the AFL in Melbourne for a lot more money than I'm on now. But I remember going over there to interview and hanging out in this hotel room and thinking is this what I'm going to be doing for the next couple of years? Like living in a hotel or a small apartment and my family going? I just went. No, it's not happening, because that wasn't a price I was prepared to pay for that income and for that job. So, no matter what, the presentation, that team, the management were awesome and all the rest of it, but you've got to balance out what you're prepared to do.

Darren Burgess:

I think you just have to understand that there is a cost there and that may not be like what you just described. Some people, that might be their dream. Oh yeah, live away from your wife, that's it. Yeah, live away from the family. Absolutely no judgment.

Darren Burgess:

No, no, no, that's absolutely fine and and sometimes you know what people have to do that because it's the only job going and the only job they can take, and I'm okay with that as well. Well, just understand that there is a cost to it and get in front of it. And, um, you're probably right. You know there's a part of me that wants to say, no, you should treat the Perth Flyers, the amateur Perth baseball team that you're working for Jase, the same as you do the Perth Glory or Fremantle Dockers or West Coast Eagles. But there is a reality of dealing with. If you live in a $50 million house versus a $50,000 house, you're probably going to treat it a bit differently and that's the reality of the assets that you're working with.

Jason Weber:

Well, I think, yeah, look, man, I'll go to the first point. I'll come back to how we treat our athletes and so forth. But, like again the last couple of years for me, I've taken a big wage but I've worked in the military overseas and that the cost was I was away from home for two months at a time, you know, doing what I was doing. So there's big costs. That was a big cost to me. That's why I chose now that I don't want to be away from family, and that's my thing. But to see your next point, which is really again a green room discussion we had, I think, your attitude to the Perth Flyers versus being at, you know, a national level or an EPL club or something, your attitude and your application, your professionalism should not waver. You should be.

Darren Burgess:

Agreed.

Jason Weber:

Now, I went back to high school coaching a bunch of years ago and I went back in and I said well, listen, this is where I've just come from. I'm not coming down to your standard, You're coming up to mine. That's it. That's the line in the sand.

Jason Weber:

I'm not coming down to your standard. You're coming up to mine. That's it. That's the line in the sand. Now I will say that I was also in a conversation a couple of weeks ago where I had a coach who was quite experienced say to me. He said what do you think about the athletes? What type of athletes do you want to work with? And I said well, look, I'm in an environment where there's lots of different stuff in Olympic sports there's lots of different sports and where I work now I have Paralympians as well. I said I'm really not that concerned. I'm really more concerned about what they bring. If they're into it, I'm on Great.

Jason Weber:

He said, no, I need to work with the best. I need to work with the very elite, because that's where I'm at my best. Need to be at work with the very elite because that's where I'm at my best. I can really fine-tune them and do that. And I thought you know what? You're a crock of shit, right, because I've seen you coach and, yeah, you can do some good stuff, but a good coach can coach in any level for mine, and you shouldn't be saying, hey, I don't coach the lesser ones, I don't coach the development athletes. I think you should be working to coach. Like I said, I feel like I want to coach those with enthusiasm and their bringing which means I think, if you're learning to coach and you're on the way up and I guess we try to give takeaways in this podcast for young coaches coming up and I guess we try to give takeaways in this podcast for young coaches coming up my opinion is you need to be great with anybody who you can encourage to train with you, someone who gives you the I don't know the right, like they're going to do what you say, so they're putting their trust in you. You should be doing the very, very best you can say. So they're putting their trust in you. You should be doing the very, very best you can.

Jason Weber:

Now again to my current situation. I've been I don't know if you want to call it blessed. I've been given a magnificent opportunity to work with a couple of paratriathletes who are phenomenal people, but not only that. I've learned so much from having to adapt skills to people who don't have a limb, who have compromised limbs, whatever, and you start to apply all the things that you work on and I talk all the time about speed, speed and running, biomechanics. You start trying to talk about running mechanics with someone who doesn't have a leg or doesn't have an arm. You know, it becomes a really, really fascinating challenge to what you understand.

Jason Weber:

And to that extent I had the pleasure of meeting with the great Dan Faffer a couple of weeks ago and after a long conversation where he tested me, he didn't say anything, we got into some of his stuff, he was loving it. But you know what he brings out. He brings out video of an athlete running with one limb. So they've got the heavy, you know big recoil limb on the other side and we're looking at spinal engine and what the pelvis is doing. And I'm fascinated because he's a coach who's at the highest level of his game.

Jason Weber:

He's not saying, hey, I only work with the best Olympic athletes. He's not saying, hey, I only work with the best olympic athletes. I'm working with a person who's, you know, a paralympian or a compromised athlete, but he's learning exponentially, having learned there. So again, my opinion is I think if someone puts their trust in you to be coached by you, you should give them everything you can like, the very best of your ability, to which I was. Again, the conversation I just had was that's what fatigues you when you're coaching heavy, when you've got a heavy coaching load, is you're giving? You're giving to your athletes, you want to give them energy, time, whatever you've got, and that's what becomes a personal cost.

Darren Burgess:

Anyway, that's my rant, yeah, I think so to summarise for the young folk out there, to summarise yeah we made the point at the start about yeah, there's a demand to the high-paying role. So if you're getting paid a lot to work in the, I don't know.

Jason Weber:

NBA or.

Darren Burgess:

NFL or AFL. There is an expectation because there's a salary which is hopefully commensurate with your experience and the role, and there's an expectation because you are dealing with expensive assets, but certainly the attitude, the enthusiasm, shouldn't differ. Maybe the time commitment is going to differ as you go down the levels, because the time commitment of the athlete is different, but the cost per session should remain the same. Is that what you're suggesting when you're elevating through the ranks? That's perhaps not the case, though. No, it's not the case.

Jason Weber:

So I think there's two parts to it. I think the number one. The first part, was really about time. So if you're paid a certain amount, well, you're going to give everything you've got in a limited window of time, whereas when, let's say, afl, my attitude was I was being paid a really good wage. That means my opinion was that if I had to stay and solve something, or something needed to be done or there was more, and we all work overs, but I was always prepared to give whatever it took because I thought that was what I was being remunerated to do. So the time became more.

Jason Weber:

You would stay for that meeting, you would stay for that meet, you would stay for this or that or the other thing, or you would come in early, or you would facilitate. You know, let's say, an athlete who wanted to do an activation on the morning of a game. It's a relatively benign thing for a game that goes two hours. You know, do they really need to do it? But you know what? I'll come in and do it because I think mentally it's good for you, it fits Right, let's go do it, whereas I'm in an environment where I'm not being paid to go to that extreme. Right, I'll tell you what to do. You go and facilitate it elsewhere. That's where I'm at.

Jason Weber:

I don't think like I would be at that if we go to the second case that person's in scheduled training and all that. I'm in and I'm giving them everything I've got, but I'm not being paid to be there on a Sunday morning before a game to do something that, in my opinion, relatively low level of return on task. You can get it done. I'll give you a list of things you can do wherever. Go and get them done. I'm not coming to work specifically. That's my beef.

Darren Burgess:

Not beef, but position. I guess what you're talking about, though, is from an attitude point of view. There can be a scenario where people say my dedication to my profession or my craft or whatever you want to call? It only applies when I work at the top level. I'm not lowering myself to go and work with. Paralympians or with part-time athletes.

Jason Weber:

Well, the conversation I was in a few weeks ago implied that very strongly. That was what I was getting off it Like I don't want to work with those people over there. I'm going to stay where I'm at now. Yeah, I, my opinion with that is I don't care, I'll work with whomever I've got. I've got a real interesting mix of combat athletes, olympics at the moment, all sorts of things, um, but my interest is in where they're at. If they're into it and focused, I'm going to bring as much as I can. But if they all start saying, hey, we need to come in on Sunday morning, like not happening because that's not where we're at at the moment, but I'll give them what I've got when we're here, when we're scheduled to be here, and that's all happening.

Jason Weber:

But I think the attitude of hey, I'm only going to work with the best athletes because I'm who I am, you know, I've got some years of experience. I don't believe in that I very much. I think the attitude of I think I learned from the Russian text years ago the youngest athletes should be with the oldest coach or the most experienced coach.

Darren Burgess:

Yeah, yeah, we spoke about that. That's an interesting concept.

Jason Weber:

So I'm in a position at the moment where I'm overseeing some teams that need more experienced coaches, coaching the youngest athletes. All right, Berger, I'm going to throw you one, because you're a very well-travelled pro. How did you feel when you went from Arsenal and you'd done heaps of years in AFL? You've gone to Arsenal, you had a bunch of years, and then you come back to the AFL. Now there's all sorts of differences. There's geography, there's income, there's the whole thing. But as a professional, how did you approach that?

Darren Burgess:

To be honest, I didn't treat the Arsenal players any different to what I did the Melbourne players when I came back. Yeah, there was no difference. There was a large difference in the pay packet and probably the value the commercial value of the athletes that you're dealing with, the number of staff that you're managing and all that sort of stuff. They're all obvious, but you don't treat them any differently at all.

Jason Weber:

No, and that's the attitude. I would hope that young coaches coming through. If you're coaching high school kids or you're coaching, you know, a semi-professional team, you should be doing the very best you can, because every opportunity you get to learn which goes back to my thing I'm. I'm way older than most dudes getting around at the moment and I'm learning. I've learned so much in recent times from my parents. My parents have taught me heaps Again because, they've trusted me to impart some.

Jason Weber:

But when you listen to what they're trying to do and you go why have we? We need to go this path and do some things they've never done before? Like it's really intriguing when you see things like an athlete that has one limb, one limb deficit, the amount of changes that occurs throughout the kinetic chain of the body, and then you've got to work around that. So when you start thinking about things like spinal engine and that and I'm like, relatively I've been a bit ambivalent to that, but now I'm looking at it where you've got people who are compromised upper body, lower body and seeing what their pelvis can generate independently of limbs I'm like, well, maybe there's more to this and how we approach it. So I stand by. I don't have any absolute conclusions in that area but, like I said, mate, I'm learning so much from these folks because they've given me the privilege of the opportunity to coach them.

Darren Burgess:

Yeah, for sure. No, I completely understand that and yeah, that's how it should be, and there's sometimes needs, must, like your situation, your personal situation, means that that's going to suit you the best at the moment. Yeah, but I think, regardless of that, the attitude and application should not change. And this, I don't know, this tendency within the industry to say no, I'm only going to be at my best when I'm coaching my elite athletes is concerning I'll tell you.

Jason Weber:

You know that I'll throw one technical one. The one I hear a bit periodically is when we're doing complex lift, we're doing cleans or whatever snatch, whatever, I'm better when there's lots of weight on the butt. No, you're not, because you can't do it when it's light. I said to someone the other day I said so if I put you in a little uh you know fiat or a little uh honda or something with four cylinders in it and you're on a manual and a stick and you can't drive it, does that mean if I put you in a formula one, you're going to go better because suddenly your skill gets better? No, it doesn't. Skill is skill regardless. If you can coach someone to drive a Fiat really fast, then you can coach them to drive the next one and the next one and you'll get to the top. But yeah, I think the attitude to mine would be if someone gives you the opportunity to coach them and they're going to listen, do your very best and respect the opportunity would be my thing.

Darren Burgess:

Agreed mate. I think we have time to wrap up on that.

Jason Weber:

The rest of life is calling us.

Darren Burgess:

So we've got two in a row.

Jason Weber:

All the best to the Adelaide Crows on the weekend. I look forward to seeing that one go the right way against my old troop.

Darren Burgess:

Oh, your old mob. Yeah, of course, my old mob. Okay, well, let's see how we go.

Jason Weber:

Good mate. Well, you look after yourself and let's all be well, and we'll catch you next week, Bob.

Darren Burgess:

See you next week mate Thank you.